Kent Thiry: Creating a Wildly Innovative Performance Culture

In this episode, iconic business leader Kent Thiry shares his night into creating an innovative performance culture. He talks about citizenship in the workforce to help all engage.

In this episode, Kent and I discuss:

• Intentional creation of culture at DaVita
• Relationship between culture and performance
• How "citizenship" differs from employment
• How companies can build citizenship internally and serve their external communities
• How he uses metrics to hold himself accountable

Hosted by Foster Mobley
Learn more about Foster at fostermobleymt.com or follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn at Foster Mobley.
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https://www.linkedin.com/in/fostermobley/

Produced, Edited, and Promoted by Zettist

Additional support from Amber Jillard Consulting

Music for Season 3 composed and performed by Philip Aaberg. Courtesy of Sweetgrass Music.

Transcript

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00;00;16;00 - 00;00;43;09

Foster Mobley

Welcome back to Step Wise. Today's guest is an iconic business leader. Kent Thiry. In my many years of practice, Kent stands out as one of the most innovative and successful business leaders I've ever encountered. Let me give you some background. I met Kent in 2000, when he was in his early days at DaVita, a kidney dialysis company formed from a series of previous mergers and not performing well.

00;00;43;09 - 00;01;13;23

Foster Mobley

That is unsustainable, as I recall it, DaVita was three weeks from insolvency when Kent took over, and within four years he had transformed the company to the leader in their industry with the highest clinical outcomes in the history of that industry. And if you know anything about dialysis, people in treatment are chronically ill. So when a major provider like DaVita moves the needle on clinical outcomes, that means that lives are literally being saved.

00;01;13;25 - 00;01;42;05

Foster Mobley

How did he and his team do it? Through three simultaneous transformations financial, operational and cultural. Radically against the prevailing wisdom, then and perhaps now, that speaks to how much an organization can change. In so doing, not only did he grow the firm, improve outcomes and financial performance, but they created one of the most dynamic cultures the healthcare industry had or has ever seen.

00;01;42;08 - 00;01;55;05

Foster Mobley

In my time with Kent, he advances another fairly unconventional notion that of citizenship of those in the workforce, and how that differs from a typical employment contract and how to use that citizenship to help all engage

00;01;55;05 - 00;02;18;09

Foster Mobley

not just in the workplace, but in our society as a whole. He talks about accountability and metrics. Two things I can vouch for having seen him lead being central to performance. And he shares with me ideas about how business can take a more active role in community affairs to build the kind of communities, country and world we're seeking.

00;02;18;11 - 00;02;21;17

Foster Mobley

I hope you enjoy my conversation with Kent Thiry.

00;02;21;17 - 00;02;39;06

Foster Mobley

Kent Thiry, delighted to be able to have this time with you today. You are past Chairman and CEO of DaVita. One of the most incredible leadership and culture stories. And you've been doing an awful lot since. So, how do you want people to know you?

00;02;39;09 - 00;03;10;08

Kent Thiry

Well, first of all, I'll start off by thanking you. So much gratitude flowing right back at you. I think for me, outside of the whole family world, I would just like people to say that he was a citizen leader who worked hard on important stuff. A citizen, because I really believe there's a big difference between living somewhere and being a citizen.

00;03;10;10 - 00;03;37;20

Kent Thiry

And when you talk to your 12-year-old child. How do you define citizenship? And then tell me if you're a citizen, because so many people have forgotten that democracy is a is not a spectator sport. And and leader only in the sense that I'm willing to go out and do new things. before other people obviously other people may do better at leading than me, but I'm but I have been willing to go into some areas that are somewhat uncharted, and the world has issues.

00;03;37;20 - 00;03;47;16

Kent Thiry

And I think life is a team sport. And if if people that have been as lucky as me don't chip in and put our law in the water, and the world could go to a very bad place.

00;03;47;18 - 00;04;10;13

Foster Mobley

I'd love to stay there. So I can't. When you survey the landscape of the leaders you're working with, talking to companies you're involved in. We hear a ton about the amount of tumult, the challenges when you talk to leaders, what are the most, pressing environmental challenges that they're that they're feeling today?

00;04;10;15 - 00;04;34;11

Kent Thiry

When I talk to, my friends and acquaintances that are in that corner office, I think the two things they say most consistently are, number one, it's so hard to know, when to get involved with something, when to speak out on something versus not. And second, and that one of course, is is commonly discussed and referred to.

00;04;34;14 - 00;04;59;14

Kent Thiry

But second equally important is the frustration. Some of them feel that given that they want to play a constructive role in society and feel they should and not wait until they retire. And so it takes that uncertainty and discomfort and then multiply it by ten. just because for a bunch of them who care about the world, they're in a frustrating spot for those who are less civically oriented, less community oriented.

00;04;59;21 - 00;05;20;19

Kent Thiry

It's not that big a deal to go silent. It's not that big a deal to decide, what sort of narrow comments to make, because that's the comfort spot they want to be in anyway. But for those who want to step up, like some people had to in the Civil War and in the 1890s and early 1900s and in World War II and in the 60s, these are pivotal times.

00;05;20;21 - 00;05;38;05

Kent Thiry

And for a lot of CEOs, they regard those issues as sort of an inconvenience. And I said, well, well, no, we are adults. We are alive right now. And just like World War II is inconvenient. You still have to decide as a CEO or as a citizen leader, what you were going to do about it, the civil rights movement.

00;05;38;05 - 00;05;56;09

Kent Thiry

If you were the CEO in a in a southern state where racism was very extreme, you can wish it were different, but it's not. And and right now, we can wish the world were different. We can wish our countries momentum was different, but it's not. And so I'm in particular sensitive to those who are wondering, like all of them.

00;05;56;12 - 00;06;01;13

Kent Thiry

But really care and want to solve for doing something.

00;06;01;16 - 00;06;11;25

Foster Mobley

That's very well said. There's a big difference between struggling with or not knowing what to say and being silent. Very, very big difference.

00;06;11;28 - 00;06;55;00

Kent Thiry

Yeah, absolutely. And I think I would rarely ever ask CEOs to wantonly disregard their fiduciary responsibilities. I mean, absolutely, that's an important part of keeping an economy running and keeping the economy running is a is an essential part of achieving equity and prosperity and peace in the world. And so I'm very respectful, the fact that I have to be boundaries, at the same time, I believe that companies and their leadership can be a spectacular vessel for good in the world without taking a whole bunch of political risk, not just on current affairs sort of thing, but just how much a CEO invests in in his or her people and how often that the

00;06;55;00 - 00;07;19;06

Kent Thiry

senior team gets together and says either what can we do for society without being foolish? Do you really have a three hour spirited debate with facilitation preserving? If you don't, how do you ever pretend to really want to solve such a tricky problem? And then the same thing. How often does your entire team get together and spend four hours brainstorming about how to add more value to the lives of your employees?

00;07;19;08 - 00;07;45;22

Kent Thiry

And and if you don't spend 3 or 4 hours on it, then you're going to be stuck with doing the same sort of average stuff that everybody else does. And so and so in both of these realms, I think the first test is, well, how hard you try. How much of that massive intellect and energy and experience that your team has, your executive team, how much of that are you bringing to the table and then showing you care by saying, we're going to allocate four hours out of a three day executive retreat.

00;07;45;24 - 00;07;51;29

Kent Thiry

We're going to spend 4 or 5 hours on this. That's when that's when beautiful things emerge.

00;07;52;01 - 00;08;13;13

Foster Mobley

Get your, experience in your 28 years as CEO has taught us all. A lot of us, how to demonstrate that commitment. And you're giving some really great suggestions here about, you know, devoting the time and energy, the focus on big questions that really tap the intellect of people, like, how are we going to take care of our people?

00;08;13;13 - 00;08;30;02

Foster Mobley

How are we going to maximize their experience, that kind of thing. And looking back, what else could a leader do who doesn't necessarily know how to, encourage employees, team members, voices like you have done? What else could a leader do?

00;08;30;05 - 00;08;51;26

Kent Thiry

Well, I think maybe there's two paths. One answer. I'll just use the example of what's going on in our democracy here in America, and the stresses and strains. And after what happened with Disney and Florida and after what happened with Coca-Cola and Delta in Atlanta, some CEOs have taken a very, I think, extreme and incorrect conclusion from those.

00;08;51;26 - 00;09;16;12

Kent Thiry

And they're shying away, when in fact, there are a number of things that a CEO and a company can do to add spectacular value to our democracy without going anywhere near where those companies went. For example, you can encourage your people to be poll workers. You can offer up, free pro bono support for all these tiny county jurisdictions that run our elections, have almost no money.

00;09;16;14 - 00;09;43;10

Kent Thiry

You can help them audit their technology. You can help them develop best administrative practices procedures. Yet a third area is you can start to talk about civics and actually have civics taught within your company in a way that's totally, equitable, in a way that is not dogmatic or ideological, but but fills the gap that exists in so many people's education now, which they never have a serious discussion about what it means to be a citizen.

00;09;43;12 - 00;10;07;09

Kent Thiry

And it can mean different things to different people, but you can't really figure out what it means to you unless you have conversations. And what what can companies do with their infrastructure? My gosh, they can facilitate conversations. In addition, a CEO and a company can defend an election integrity once they meet, once they've invested the resources to confirm that, in fact, that, that that integrity has been, demonstrated.

00;10;07;12 - 00;10;29;10

Kent Thiry

and then you could also get involved in the election system itself and work on things like reforming gerrymandering and opening up closed primaries, things that give voice and choice back to the people. So, so that's those are 5 or 6 examples of how a CEO and a company can help our democracy at very low risk of any backlash.

00;10;29;13 - 00;10;48;08

Foster Mobley

What you're pointing out are gaps in people's training, education, background, etc. that corporations can step in to fill. It's a fundamentally different relationship between corporation and team member than what we might have seen 40 years ago, 30 years ago, that kind of thing.

00;10;48;10 - 00;11;22;21

Kent Thiry

And that's why I use the historical analogy of the time in the Civil War of the 1890s and 1900. That's when the people rose up, because power was too concentrated amongst a small group of people. And they instituted things like the direct election of senators, things like a private ballot, things like women's suffrage. And so there have been times before where where citizen leaders and citizens in general have said, oh my gosh, I can conceptually defend not getting involved because I've got this company and I've got my family and I'm working hard.

00;11;22;23 - 00;11;48;21

Kent Thiry

and I got to stay away from politics and this other stuff. You can do that. You can you can have a philosophical paradigm which says, that's okay, but that could mean the world goes to hell in a handbasket on your watch. And so there just are times where there's extraordinary, extraordinary stresses there. It just are times, and there's that old saying, you know, all it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to stand quietly by.

00;11;48;28 - 00;12;23;15

Kent Thiry

And then mobilizing our people, within a company, in a positive way, again, around the constructive dissemination of information, the constructive discussions, having literally history lessons be a part of what you do at work on a voluntary basis and, and obviously always, balanced in terms of ideology and suddenly I'm a CEO of a company can create several thousand more activated citizens, not just more activated, but more thoughtful, more tolerant.

00;12;23;18 - 00;12;34;17

Foster Mobley

Democracy really requires that kind of knowledge and involvement of its citizenry. And so that's a very cool role for, leaders in organizations to be able to play it.

00;12;34;17 - 00;12;58;26

Kent Thiry

Democracy is not only not a spectator sport, it's a participant sport, it's also a full contact sport. And and that's going to happen. There isn't any form of government where there aren't going to be tussles over who has power. But what's the great thing about democracy potentially, is that the people have a lot of power. But only if they create a system where that power retains its legitimacy.

00;12;58;29 - 00;13;19;29

Kent Thiry

So the, the imperative, just like other times in our history, the imperative for business leaders to get involved in a prudent way is, in my mind, clear that it will be hard to answer the question your kids might ask you in 15 years. You know, where were you? Where were you when this was happening?

00;13;19;29 - 00;13;56;00

Kent Thiry

Just like 40 years ago? It was where were you when, when John Lewis and the Freedom Riders were cruising through the South? What were you saying? What were you doing? Where were you when Hitler started taking over the countries and, systematically assassinating populations? The these these are the questions. If things move south, these are the questions each one of us who've been so blessed to be CEOs of companies or senior executives, we will be will we will be asked by our kids or we won't be asked because the kids are afraid the answer will be embarrassing.

00;13;56;06 - 00;14;24;24

Foster Mobley

We have multi generations in the workplace, all the way from boomers to Gen Zers, and now the alpha generation Alpha that, all very different needs, all very different training experiences, all these generations now are looking to bring more of themselves, to have a greater voice, to have more personal attention, but to bring more of their humanity into the workplace.

00;14;24;27 - 00;14;29;05

Foster Mobley

if that premise is true, what could leaders do?

00;14;29;07 - 00;14;54;04

Kent Thiry

Yeah, I think the potential is just immense. And you're right, it starts with, with this positive that there's millions of people of all ages who want to do good with their lives at the same time is making a reasonable living. And it's and it's more palpable and tangible, I think, than in other times in our history. And it's and it's great that that's a common denominator across all these different generations.

00;14;54;06 - 00;15;15;05

Kent Thiry

And I think this is where there's the opportunity for the CEO and others in the, in the C-suite to develop a very, coherent paradigm. for how our company is going to seek to do good for our people and the planet or whatever exact words people want to use. And you have to do it before you're in a crisis.

00;15;15;05 - 00;15;41;10

Kent Thiry

You have to develop the paradigm ahead of time and say, right, here's here's content. That's okay, that that's okay for us to discuss, and here's the process through which we will do it, that you have a very explicit filter that you talk about when the when, when the stuff has not hit the fan. And so when this stuff hits the fan, you can say, okay, according to our paradigm, this, this is something that we will, get engaged in and this is how we'll get engaged.

00;15;41;10 - 00;16;07;22

Kent Thiry

We used to say, as you remember, the community produces most with an honors, most that LeBron James deserves to be rewarded because he's really good basketball player. But that's nothing to honor. Human behavior is something to be honored and in this case, what we need companies to do is honor the rules of engagement, honor the opinions of all which has a natural smoothing and dampening effect for all the obvious reasons that you're letting everyone speak to.

00;16;07;22 - 00;16;23;10

Foster Mobley

Do that, it seems to me that requires great maturity, wisdom, self-regulation, calmness on the part of leaders. And again, these aren't things we necessarily talked about 30 years ago.

00;16;23;12 - 00;16;59;28

Kent Thiry

But I it's so true. And, and one of the phrases that you'll recall that, that I love is intentionality rules. People can tell even if you're uncomfortable, even if you're not charismatic, people can tell you your intentions. And if your intention is to facilitate a healthy conversation amongst your own employees and then see if if you and your company can play a positive role in some way, if people can just feel that intentional, they, that that gives you tremendous degrees of freedom in what you do.

00;17;00;02 - 00;17;27;21

Foster Mobley

You're coming at this from a different worldview than what I typically hear from a business leader. That is to say, we are all citizens. That's a very different, you know, framework, from which to lead. Can you think of other kind of paradigmatic shifts like that one that would help govern the leaders moving forward, you know, who are maybe coming to their first leadership, first or second leadership job during this time?

00;17;27;24 - 00;17;31;26

Foster Mobley

Like how what are the frames that they need to consider.

00;17;31;29 - 00;18;03;22

Kent Thiry

To the extent you want those jurisdictions to develop business-friendly policies to foster a healthy economy, you must proportionately invest in having community-friendly policies. Why should voters in the government continue to care about creating a business-friendly environment? If they think you don't care? If they think you're just as likely to move your factory to India? If that's a make-or-break decision for your company, that's morally that's morally appropriate because the alternative is to have everybody lose their jobs because you go bankrupt.

00;18;03;25 - 00;18;24;01

Kent Thiry

If it's to improve your margin by half a percent, well, then what the hell? What what what values contract does that come from? Where you destroy a third-tier city in in Oklahoma or New York or California because you move a factory for a half a point, a margin and destroy that resulting community with all the people that worked for you?

00;18;24;08 - 00;18;44;19

Kent Thiry

There's all sorts of things that that if again, if you sit in a room with your executive team and say, let's spend a couple of hours thinking of how we can do more, do better for the community, talk to me about how you earn the right for business-friendly policies by having a community friendly policies. And that cannot just be a reasonable wage with reasonable benefits.

00;18;44;21 - 00;18;49;02

Kent Thiry

That's not a fulsome answer.

00;18;49;04 - 00;19;07;08

Foster Mobley

You're you're talking about, a wonderful involvement, much more holistic involvement on the part of companies that puts a lot of pressure on the average leader to be more engaged, informed, open all of those things, him or herself.

00;19;07;11 - 00;19;28;12

Kent Thiry

One quote I've always liked is a Buddhist quote, “One cannot pour from an empty cup.” The concept is pretty powerful that if you do not take care of yourself physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, whatever that means to you, then your ability to be, to realize your full potential, to be your full self and to give gifts to others are going to be heavily circumspect.

00;19;29;05 - 00;19;50;06

Kent Thiry

And so each of us, and particularly those who have the incredible pressure of being a CEO in today's world, you've got to keep your cup reasonably full or your ability to handle these kind of issues goes down. And so I would say that each one of us should have a discipline, just like CEOs often have enough discipline to work out.

00;19;50;08 - 00;20;02;20

Kent Thiry

Well, yeah, they need to have enough discipline to think about helping their, their, their sort of soul reflect and their soul stay healthy as much as their biceps.

00;20;02;22 - 00;20;18;03

Foster Mobley

You know, you've been one of the more visionary and optimistic leaders I've ever met. And at the same time, you have a real commitment to metrics and accountable. Can you talk about that? Are those different? Are they complementary? How do you see that?

00;20;18;05 - 00;20;45;25

Kent Thiry

I had a bad fault of I gave too much negative feedback compared to positive feedback. And so I had to look inside myself a lot, and try to figure out why I continue to have that fault. And, but I realized that in order to change that, I had to track first. Every meeting, I'd give myself a score of did I, on a net basis, fill people's cups or empty them?

00;20;45;27 - 00;21;03;28

Kent Thiry

and then I got to the bottom. I did it once a day, and I just kept these in a simple spreadsheet with myself and my assistant. and then a week and within two years, that negative was gone from my 360. And so that that's an example of a real live operating metrics applied to the CEO in their own growth.

00;21;04;00 - 00;21;25;19

Kent Thiry

But we also attract, the metrics of our other programs, like we had a thing called an academy where every single teammate from across the country was invited for two days to learn more about our mission, our rituals, our language. We we would track what was turnover in the subsequent two years after people attended the volunteer academy versus those who didn't.

00;21;25;21 - 00;21;39;14

Kent Thiry

And the difference was dramatic. And so and so when we talk to our board of directors and they said, well, you're spending a lot of money on this, I was able to say, well, yeah, because this is what how we want to live this this is how we create a better world, and we can afford to do it.

00;21;39;14 - 00;21;59;11

Kent Thiry

And no one else is going to pull these people together. and and so this is our opportunity to give a gift to the world. But I could also say, and by the way, it more than pays for itself. because here's the turnover statistics, and here's a bunch of the comments. So those are two examples where you need to have operating rigor and metrics.

00;21;59;14 - 00;22;09;07

Kent Thiry

if you're going to achieve massive excellence in the behavioral sphere and the engagement sphere like you want to in the strategic and operating sphere.

00;22;09;13 - 00;22;27;13

Foster Mobley

When you and I first met and you had taken over DaVita, I think, turnover was 52%. And within a very short period of time, based on some very focused efforts of you and your team, it was down in the high teens or low 20s. And boy, that was your pay for a lot of development.

00;22;27;15 - 00;22;54;24

Kent Thiry

Well, in your memories. Exactly right. And there's even an equally powerful example after a few years, and we were kind of at 18% or so, you're right across our, a couple thousand clinics across America. We bought another company, which was very large. They had about 8000, employees, and they were in the same cities doing clinics, ostensibly the same kind of clinics, dialysis clinics, in the same cities across America.

00;22;54;29 - 00;23;29;22

Kent Thiry

And when you did the math, our average wages were virtually equal. So here you have them with 8000, maybe we had 12 or 13,000, probably active in 30 states. Incredible geographic overlap. Their turnover was 40% higher. Their turnover was about 28%. And and that's holding pay constant and holding geography constant across the entire country. And the key difference was, a, that our people felt more respected, more invested in and more cared for than theirs.

00;23;29;25 - 00;23;51;17

Kent Thiry

and then second but but far less significant was while our wages were equal, we did significantly more profit sharing than they did. But it wasn't enough money to drive the difference in behavior. It instead, those profit sharing bonuses were differential, and they contributed to reinforcing the teammates notion that, gosh, I'm working in a place that cares about me.

00;23;51;19 - 00;24;20;06

Foster Mobley

You know, that to me, is one of the most remarkable pieces of this story. In that while turnover reduced dramatically in the first 3 or 4 years, while people's, sense of your care for and esteem of them increased very dramatically, maybe contributing to that at the same time you were improving or increasing the amount of accountability and measurement.

00;24;20;08 - 00;24;33;02

Foster Mobley

I you know, that's again, that's, a little counterintuitive for some that both of these things can exist in, in some sort of balance or tension or something.

00;24;33;04 - 00;24;58;12

Kent Thiry

Well, and the analogy I use often is thinking about life balance, that when I'm talking to young MBAs and they ask you about these questions, I said, well, job one is to respect how difficult it is in business when you have a tough problem, like a manufacturing problem or a marketing problem, when it's important and difficult, you get together, you have brainstorming sessions, you have a strategy, you have initiatives, and you monitor them.

00;24;58;18 - 00;25;19;06

Kent Thiry

It's all sort of self-evident. Of course, we all do it naturally because it would be foolish not to for something important and complicated. And then in our own life, something that's important and complicated, like life balance, we give almost no time to it. Like, would you ever think of building a new factory and not tracking labor? No. But yet we go through life without tracking our nights away from our kids.

00;25;19;09 - 00;25;33;25

Kent Thiry

But I but the duality that you're referring to is essential. First, sort of conceptually care, but then second, to bring business rigor in terms of brainstorming and execution to the fore.

00;25;33;28 - 00;25;50;08

Foster Mobley

When you think about recruiting, when you thought about recruiting leaders into the at the senior levels, what did you look for and how could you sort out the people that might not be able to make that kind of ethos work?

00;25;50;10 - 00;26;17;00

Kent Thiry

Yeah, we we paid a lot of attention to how community-oriented someone was, how open they were to personal growth, how self-aware were they, what was their ability to talk about their mistakes, what was their ability to talk about their fault? And and when we did retroactive, views of how we did on hiring our last 40 vice presidents, it was it was stunning.

00;26;17;02 - 00;26;40;04

Kent Thiry

how how the ones who were most likely to be very highly successful at the veto were growth oriented, were, were self-aware and were willing to keep learning and discuss themselves as human beings. And and because when we make people better people, they automatically become better business leaders. Well.

00;26;40;07 - 00;27;07;23

Foster Mobley

Yeah, that's very powerful. So I'm got to ask you to turn the clock back. Just a hair. obviously the the environmental situation a little bit different in today than when you stepped into DaVita, but, could the DaVita experience be done again today in light of all of the challenges our workforce is facing in the different workforce you've got?

00;27;07;26 - 00;27;19;25

Foster Mobley

And if that's the case, then what would you if you were CEO, what would you do differently today than you did before? How would that experience be different?

00;27;19;27 - 00;27;54;23

Kent Thiry

What I would say, I do intensely believe that creating a community-like environment, being a community first and a company second, is absolutely possible and practical in today's world. As second, I do think it requires greater navigational skills, because of what's going on within the country and the world. Common denominator across all generations is is a desire to have work be more strongly and fundamentally aligned with your own personal values.

00;27;54;26 - 00;28;18;17

Kent Thiry

And and that that's a positive. That's something that makes it easier in that there's demand. It just it's complicated to give supply. and and so I think it's absolutely doable because the interest is higher but the navigation is greater. What what makes it just as doable in the current world is in the old world is letting the people be co-designers.

00;28;18;20 - 00;28;42;02

Kent Thiry

and that's not that. You turn everything over. but, but you do certain things by voting. You listen, and, and therefore they are designing. It's how you, it's how you can be confident of success because because once they design something, they're going to be quite with you and, and going down that trail, if they help design the path or in our case, the bridge, you know, they're much more likely to go over it.

00;28;42;05 - 00;28;57;11

Kent Thiry

and, and so I think that's what makes me if I were taking over, which I'm very glad I'm not, taking over a big company today. that's why I would be as optimistic as I was 20 years ago.

00;28;57;13 - 00;29;02;28

Foster Mobley

KT, thank you. Yeah, we could do this for a long time. And I always enjoy it when we're together. So, appreciate your time.

00;29;03;00 - 00;29;24;01

Foster Mobley

For a deeper exploration of your own journey. You can find tools, stories and reflection questions in my book Leadersh*t: Rethinking the True Path to Great Leading. Or by following me on Social media. I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram as Foster Mobley. Until next time. Step wise.

00;29;24;01 - 00;29;52;13

Jana Devan

Thank you for listening to Step Wise. Step Wise is brought to you by Doctor Foster Mobley, edited and promoted by Zettist. You can listen to more episodes wherever you stream podcasts. Find out more at Foster Mobley m t dot com, or follow us on social media at Foster Mobley. That's Foster Mobley. We look forward to having an inspiring conversation with you soon.