Janet Foutty: Earning Workforce Loyalty Through Humanity and Authenticity

Very few people know what it's like to run a $6 billion-plus consulting business, and fewer still know what it takes to be the board chair for the largest professional services firm in the world. My next guest does. She's Janet Foutty. Recently retired from her role as chairperson of Deloitte, Janet is incredibly bright, she's thoughtful and well-spoken and has important insights for creating a productive and inclusive culture in these times of workforces demanding greater voice, flexibility, autonomy, and meaningful work.

In this episode we talk about: 

• How authenticity, and the needs for it, have shifted in her time at Deloitte
• The complexity of business issues we face today requires an inclusive and diverse culture and talent
• Despite having to deal with increased individual/personal needs of the workforce, leaders are required to give and receive feedback more than ever
• How leaders work to set appropriate boundaries for topics acceptable to address in the workforce and those that aren't

I know you'll enjoy this conversation.

Learn more about Foster at fostermobleymt.com or follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn at Foster Mobley.

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Transcript

00:00:15:18 - 00:00:52:08

Foster Mobley

Welcome back to Step Wise. Very few people know what it's like to run a $6 billion-plus consulting business, and fewer still know what it takes to be the board chair for the largest professional services firm in the world. My next guest does. She's Janet Foutty. Recently retired from her role as chairperson of Deloitte, Janet is incredibly bright, she's thoughtful and well-spoken and has important insights for creating a productive and inclusive culture in these times of workforces demanding greater voice, flexibility, autonomy, and meaningful work.

00:00:52:10 - 00:01:09:09

Foster Mobley

A lifelong learner herself, she's a fierce advocate for increasing diverse thinking in our decisions to improve decision quality. Engaging in conversation with such an incredible leadership thinker as Janet is mind-expanding. I hope you enjoy this interview with Janet Foutty.

00:01:09:09 - 00:01:27:29

Janet Foutty 

I am Janet Foutty. For much of my career, I introduced myself as a partner at Deloitte. I've just completed 33 years as the Chair of the firm, as the senior most partner. Things that are of passion to me are technology, equity, women, and generally all things leadership.

00:01:28:00 - 00:01:49:18

Foster Mobley

Well, let's start exactly there. You know, 20 years ago, we were not having these conversations about equity and inclusion. The conversation about women's involvement was not quite as out loud or direct as it is today. What are you seeing that's causing these changes and causing businesses to have to pay attention?

00:01:49:20 - 00:02:14:23

Janet Foutty

For me, when you use the 20-year mark or I, you know, I'm 30 years into my career, and the conversation has changed remarkably in terms of the attention and focus on the sets things I'm sure we're going to talk about today: authentic leadership, how you connect with your people, and why equity matters. And I think there's two things that have driven that up.

00:02:14:24 - 00:02:55:27

Janet Foutty

One, is that the workforce itself has become more diverse, which is wonderful. And generationally, we understand that our people have higher expectations for how they engage in the workforce and what they expect out of the workforce. But the other thing that I think has happened is that I think there's also been a recognition, certainly in corporate America, that the connectivity between employer and employee is less about the construct and the organizational loyalty, and more about the interpersonal loyalty.

00:02:55:29 - 00:03:24:00

Janet Foutty

And the corollary compliment to that is that we now understand it's been well studied, that more diverse teams and broader sets of people around the table make for better business outcomes. So I think sort of those three sets of things have really changed the attention and focus on how business leaders pay attention to and interact and engage and think about leadership, talent, women, the list goes on.

00:03:24:02 - 00:03:56:19

Foster Mobley

I love that, you know, and again, it's interesting to me because this is a very, very interesting time. Gallup has been telling us for 20 years that it is about the relationship between supervisor and employee, rather than as much loyalty to an organization or structure like that. And we're now kind of getting it, I think the confluence of the pandemic, the confluence of you know, DEI conversations, inclusion, all that kind of stuff have really opened people's eyes.

00:03:56:19 - 00:04:20:08

Foster Mobley

But it's in some ways not super new. I mean, we've kind of figured this stuff out before, but what it implies to me, Janet, and I'd love you to weigh in on this. It implies to me that the relationship between our employees, their employment contract with their organization, is very different today. What they're, as you say, what they're expecting, what they're needing.

00:04:20:11 - 00:04:41:26

Foster Mobley

That kind of thing. So given that, if that's love your comments on that one. But if that's even directionally right, what are the best leaders doing that you're seeing in terms of balancing both that humanity and organization's commitments to high performance? What are they doing?

00:04:41:29 - 00:05:12:01

Janet Foutty

Yeah. So I want to I want to circle back for a second to your comment around Gallup recognizing where loyalty lies, because I couldn't agree with you more. But I think there's something else that's happened that we haven't talked about yet that I think is super important, which is that the complexity of the issues that business leaders are also working through is so much more sophisticated and so much more broad-reaching and ranging than the issues that they dealt with 20 plus years ago.

00:05:12:03 - 00:05:36:17

Janet Foutty

But I also think it requires a level of one is collaboration and humanity to be able to think about the broad sets of things that business leaders have to deal with them. And I think about the topics and the complexity of the topics is just second to none. From, you know, you mentioned social media and DEI. Those are things that business leaders did not have in their sight.

00:05:36:18 - 00:06:03:13

Janet Foutty

So that's a little bit of an aside from your question. But I think absolutely clear in the market shift and the requirement that you know, you're not going to be sort of the king standing at the top of the castle. That's a little bit of a mixed metaphor, but, you know, you're not going to be able to dictate from on high as a business leader, because there's no way you're going to have all of the knowledge and insight to make great decisions on behalf of your organization, on how to lead.

00:06:03:19 - 00:06:29:12

Janet Foutty

In terms of the things that I think that I certainly see my own organization. I do think that for leaders from the most junior team leader to the most seasoned board members and CEOs, showing up more authentically is an incredibly important part of how leaders lead in this moment and how they create connectivity to their people. And, you know, authenticity

00:06:29:12 - 00:06:49:19

Janet Foutty

when I started my career was not a word that anybody used whatsoever. As a matter of fact, it was really the inverse. I was working in a very male-dominated business at the intersection of technology and Wall Street. You did your very best to fit in and be a classic, quote unquote, “42-long.” And that was that was what was expected.

00:06:49:19 - 00:07:13:22

Janet Foutty

And that was the norm. And that was what was sort of natural in the business community over the last sets of decades. I do think that showing up in your own skin more comfortably yourself, having the confidence to expose bits and pieces in a work appropriate manner of who you are and what matters to you is an incredibly important thing that leaders do in this moment.

00:07:13:24 - 00:07:35:29

Janet Foutty

And it's doing it through a wide variety of mechanisms. I, the best leaders I see, do that consistently through both their one-on-one interactions, their broad interactions, whether that's in town halls or in writing, in how they use social media, which I know can be very uncomfortable for some leaders, but using social media to show who you are.

00:07:36:01 - 00:08:04:09

Janet Foutty

And so I think that's an incredibly important part of creating a human-centered feeling as a leader. That's on one end of the spectrum. On a very other end of the spectrum, I think how we think about performance management and how we both give and receive feedback, and how organizations help their people get better at giving and receiving feedback is also an incredibly important part of this moment that we're in.

00:08:04:12 - 00:08:22:15

Janet Foutty

And that might sound a little bit sort of contrary to this sort of idea of authenticity, but I think that the best performing leaders really understand how to give very clear and very actionable feedback and how to receive and act on feedback.

00:08:22:15 - 00:08:45:00

Foster Mobley

I've had a number of people relate the notion of feedback to a requirement for authenticity. You can't be authentic unless you speak your truth. Unless I can trust you to speak your truth to me. If you trust me enough, then you're going authentically, really, truly, you're going to be willing to share the goods and the bads with me.

00:08:45:02 - 00:09:22:01

Foster Mobley

The interesting piece too that I didn't expect is, and you're going to demonstrate through your actions, your openness to receive feedback from me as a real sign of your authentic commitment, regard all of that stuff. And regard is the word that I've been using a lot lately, because if that feedback given or received is from a place of true, genuine regard for me as a person, as opposed to me as a performance unit or whatever, then we're going to have a lot more clarity, directness, intimacy, authenticity, all that stuff.

00:09:22:07 - 00:09:47:16

Foster Mobley

So it's interesting to me that you brought that up. Question for you, Janet. Authenticity is kicked around a lot these days. I'm finding a lot of different definitions about what that really means and where the boundaries of that are. I burlesque and say, I go to Starbucks. I have a lousy cup of coffee. With the advent of social media, I'm being true to my beliefs

00:09:47:16 - 00:10:06:12

Foster Mobley

if I get on social media and say “that barista was terrible and that Starbucks don't ever go–” like that's true, that man is true to me. So what does authenticity mean to you? And where do you see the lane lines or the boundaries about what's appropriate in our relationships, in the workplace?

00:10:06:14 - 00:10:35:14

Janet Foutty

Our collective idea around those boundaries is still very much evolving. And I do not I even in the last year, my thinking has evolved around that. But I'll get back to that. You know, I think authenticity is being super clear about what matters most to you, and then figuring out how you share and show up with those attributes of what's most important to you in a—

00:10:35:14 - 00:10:54:16

Janet Foutty

and I'll continue to use a professional setting—that we could use personal as well in a professional setting. So I think it's very much rooted in knowing who you are and knowing what values matter most to you, and then getting comfortable in sharing those values or attributes in the workplace.

00:10:54:17 - 00:11:28:12

Foster Mobley

It's authentic to something as opposed to authentic about everything. Authenticity according to your values, your principles, your purpose. Maybe your job. I don't know, but. Or company mores or company norms something but it snapping to something as opposed to this broad same kind of thing with transparency. People say I want to be totally transparent. No you don't. I don't think you really want to be totally transparent, because then you would be sharing kind of unself-regulated thoughts before they've kind of filtered through.

00:11:28:12 - 00:11:29:27

Foster Mobley

What's important to you.

00:11:30:00 - 00:11:58:16

Janet Foutty

Adam Grant, who I know you and I both admire, does a really nice job. And I really like his framework for how you think about, within the construct of what's appropriate. Now, do I think the boundaries of the construct, what's appropriate, continue to evolve? They do, but there are still a set of norms which are very different over the decades, but there's still a set of professional norms and a frame that I think is super important to sort of live within.

00:11:58:18 - 00:12:11:29

Janet Foutty

And I think respect is a big part of that. This idea that, we respect each other and therefore we're sensitive and thoughtful to how we show up authentically.

00:12:12:04 - 00:12:32:24

Foster Mobley

You know, historical precedents also could influence those boundaries for a while, until an organization really understands more about each of us that can develop that respect differently. But history and precedent does have some shaping factor in, in fairly new leaders into organization and especially at the top.

00:12:32:28 - 00:13:00:00

Janet Foutty

You know, for me, the parallel that I draw on, Foster, that was probably one of the most difficult moments I've had before I've hit, you know, hit send on an email to the hundred and 160,000 people at Deloitte, was around women's reproductive rights here in the US. And how to balance, you know, a very broad workforce with very broad perspectives on, you know, some would claim is the most sensitive topic that there is.

00:13:00:02 - 00:13:23:06

Janet Foutty

And, you know, 15 years ago, we never, never would have. Ten years ago, we never would have been expected to comment on women's reproductive rights in a professional setting. To my point that the bar keeps moving. But I felt it was important as a woman, in particular, for the organization to hear my voice in a very careful way and very different than a private conversation I would have.

00:13:23:09 - 00:13:58:04

Janet Foutty

But to understand what I thought that this meant, for women, and for our society, even when time is absolutely critical, I get 5 to 10 opinions on any broad statement I'm going to make. And from a broad set of people and stakeholders to get really clear perspective and advice and reactions to how the perspectives will land and I cannot think of a single time when I didn't refine the messaging based on that input. Input and reactions.

00:13:58:04 - 00:14:01:18

Janet Foutty

even when you're under time pressure, I think it's incredibly important.

00:14:01:20 - 00:14:32:26

Foster Mobley

Oh, wow. There's a lot in that, some. So let me start with one piece. Some say that the increased need in today's workforce, for clarity from their leaders about their takes on current events. The research shows that the trust in traditional institutions and structures is at an all time low. The attendance at churches and the belief in structured religion is at an all time low.

00:14:33:02 - 00:14:48:21

Foster Mobley

Trust in academia, trust in government that people now are looking for because they need that sense of direction from somewhere and they're getting it, or demanding that they get it from their business organizations. And I’d love your thoughts on that one.

00:14:48:23 - 00:15:28:23

Janet Foutty

What I've found, and I've evolved my thinking a lot on this over the years, is having a framework in advance for how you're going to make decisions on social stances, and where you take a public stand and where you don't is invaluable. Now, it is not foolproof by any stretch of the imagination, but at least having a frame that you can bounce the issue of the day against that is aligned from—depending on your organization—from your board to in some cases, actually your people and maybe even your clients is an invaluable asset, imperfect, but an invaluable starting place to test where and when you take social stances.

00:15:28:23 - 00:15:42:10

Janet Foutty

I found certainly both in my own organization as well as my clients, and having that rooted in the stronger the stand I will take, the more aligned to my business and the more I should have a well-informed opinion.

00:15:42:12 - 00:16:05:27

Foster Mobley

It raises two questions for me, Janet. The first one is proactivity. Thinking through some of these issues in advance, like Deloitte did so well. You know, hearing that example, it's really difficult for me to imagine how a complex organization of as many people and as many smart people and committed people as Deloitte has, how you would navigate without some framework of principles.

00:16:06:00 - 00:16:26:18

Foster Mobley

And, you know, here's here are our principles. Here's what we'll weigh in on. Here's what we won’t. I think that's just brilliant. The second one is, the pressure this puts on leaders to be more knowledgeable about external issues than perhaps ever before. And I'd love you to share your thoughts on that one.

00:16:26:21 - 00:16:50:04

Janet Foutty

On the framework point, I would say that that was very much, you know, I cannot say that at Deloitte, we woke up one day and said, you know, this is a brilliant idea. You know, in 2012. Deloitte has a very broad set of clients as the largest professional services firm in the world. So we're probably under more pressure than many organizations would be to to have been out in front of that.

00:16:50:06 - 00:17:06:09

Janet Foutty

And, and all the complexities and, and frankly, all the nuance that comes with that, because it's one thing to have a framework and you still need a lot of brains to push on and think about, “how does this topic sit against, sit against this framework?”

00:17:06:11 - 00:17:43:17

Foster Mobley

You're implying different, I think, and maybe these are just maybe my listening for this. You're implying a different, kind of a more rounded, more conscious leadership than perhaps I learned or taught in my business school years. more self-aware, more of an ability to regard the other person and listen openly. A more collaborative approach where power is more shared than top-down because we need and deserve diverse opinions, diverse engagement, diverse inclusion than before to get the right kind of thing.

00:17:43:17 - 00:17:52:19

Foster Mobley

What's the response of organizations to be able to develop that kind of more conscious, dare I say, EQ-based leadership?

00:17:52:22 - 00:18:15:20

Janet Foutty

Deloitte has a wonderful partner. His name is Eamonn Kelly and he is a futurist by background but also a strategist. And he has this great framework for how to think about C-suite leadership. And it's super simple. In the 1970s and early 80s, it was C-suite 1.0 so obviously goes before the 70s. And that was back to my king of the castle.

00:18:15:22 - 00:18:50:22

Janet Foutty

You know, whenever the castle was a geography, a division, a region, a company, the leaders sat at the top and directed from above. C-suite 2.0 was all about functional expertise. And think about the rise of the CXO. I mean, in my Deloitte world, I don't even know how many CTOs we have Chief Technology Officer, Chief Tax Officer, Chief Talent Officer it was all about the rise of the functional domain and what organizations invested in and rewarded was becoming truly expert in your thing.

00:18:50:24 - 00:19:26:25

Janet Foutty

Where we are today in C-suite 3.0 is all about how do you create that highly engaged, highly collaborative, broad set of leaders because you need such a disparate set of voices around the table to inform. And so I think if you use that framework and you think about development through an organization, whether it's your, you know, your high potential leaders, whether it is, you know, depending on how the organization thinks about development, I for me, that framework is incredibly helpful because it just it lays out the landscape so clearly.

00:19:26:25 - 00:19:47:23

Janet Foutty

Of course, as you're building your career, you need domain expertise. It's not to trivialize that, but when you think about taking broader sets of responsibilities, this idea that you are part of, you know, whether you use a circle analogy or whether you, you know, whatever visual works for you, that you're even as the leader, you're still a link.

00:19:47:28 - 00:20:16:27

Janet Foutty

And how you think about investment in development of listening, authenticity, knowing yourself, building an inclusive environment, and all the tips and tricks and techniques we need to build an inclusive environment where people feel they can be authentic. To your point earlier that they can get and receive feedback in a constructive way that it's I think it's all about how do you role model that behavior?

00:20:16:27 - 00:20:39:07

Janet Foutty

How do you incent that? How do you develop it? How do you how do you reward people that do that, do that really well? You know, I had a team. I'll close this question on this point. I was had an offsite for my leadership team, and we had listened to a leadership podcast, and we broke it out into tables to discuss it.

00:20:39:09 - 00:21:02:05

Janet Foutty

And a young but very talented member of my leadership team, and this is probably, 120 people in the room their table came up with, and she had the courage to stand up and say in front of 120 people, the principle in the norm that we want, as Deloitte Consulting is no more high performing assholes. And that took a lot of courage to say that.

00:21:02:05 - 00:21:25:16

Janet Foutty

But what she meant was we shouldn't be rewarding people who have bad behavior, but they are a rainmaker, brilliant in their domain, whatever, the one thing that they were great at that shouldn't be tolerated or accepted in this organization. Yeah. So I think it's all about how do you think about the culture that cultivates that kind of mindset.

00:21:25:18 - 00:21:39:04

Foster Mobley

And frankly, that's for getting the right people in the front door in the first place, with a whole different set of emotional capabilities and a broader intellect than just the incredible firepower intellectually, that most Deloitte people have.

00:21:39:07 - 00:22:20:08

Janet Foutty

On the intellect point, I agree with you entirely. I do think it requires a broader intellect with the ability to be open to that. But I've also learned over the course of my career, Foster, not to worry as much about what motivates people. And you and I might be motivated. We'll just go back to the equity topic. You and I might deeply believe that investing in women, because it's the right thing to do is incredibly important. But I've come to appreciate that if you tell people what you expect and they behave consistently, I've actually worried less about what motivates them to behave that way versus their behaviors.

00:22:20:11 - 00:22:41:08

Janet Foutty

And that was a really important shift in my own growth. And I think super important for how I lead, which was not everyone was motivated by the same things that I was or cared about, the same things that I did. But they understood the expectations. And if they consistently met the expectations for how we behaved and carried ourselves, that's what really mattered.

00:22:41:11 - 00:22:49:27

Foster Mobley

What's influencing you today? What are your best sources that you could share with people reading podcast? Anything particularly standing out?

00:22:49:29 - 00:23:15:00

Janet Foutty

I read every day the summaries from four newspapers, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, the New York Times, and the Financial Times are in my daily, at least skim their summary. You know, they do daily summaries, so I at least skim those every day. If not, read them deeply. I deeply believe in journalism, so I think my husband and I, I think we subscribe to ten newspapers.

00:23:15:00 - 00:23:41:27

Janet Foutty

I listen religiously to a couple of podcasts. I do listen to the Wall Street Journal and an NPR Morning Start Your Days on those two, because I figure those are two pretty good contrasting. They're actually despite their reputations. They're actually quite balanced and neutral in their morning summaries. I listen to a podcast called Pivot, which is all about tech, media and politics, which is pretty edgy.

00:23:41:27 - 00:24:02:00

Janet Foutty

So for people in your universe that aren't comfortable with edgy, it could be a little edgy. I listen to a podcast, The New York Times podcast called Hard Fork, which is excellent on all things tech, a New York Times tech columnist and a platformer tech columnist. And it helps me stay very current on all things tech. I love Adam Grant.

00:24:02:00 - 00:24:09:12

Janet Foutty

So anything from Adam Grant on leadership? That's probably the short list of things that I consistently listened to.

00:24:09:14 - 00:24:51:18

Foster Mobley

That's wonderful, helpful. And I'm going to start paying attention to a couple of more of those, more of those reading and listening sources. So, Janet, I appreciate you very much, and I appreciate your time and your thinking. This is a masterclass for me. This is really a masterclass in kind of leading in this age. And so I appreciate you, your willingness and your many contributions to the many communities that I serve. 

For a deeper exploration of your own journey, you can find tools, stories, and reflection questions in my book Leadersh*t: Rethinking the True Path to Great Leading, or by following me on social media.

00:24:51:20 - 00:24:58:09

Foster Mobley

I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram as Foster Mobley. Until next time, Step Wise.

00:24:58:12 - 00:25:27:18

Jana Devan

Thank you for listening to Step Wise. Step Wise is brought to you by Doctor Foster Mobley, edited and promoted by Zettist. You can listen to more episodes wherever you stream podcasts. Find out more at Foster Mobley mt.com, or follow us on social media at Foster Mobley. That's f-o-s-t-e-r-m-o-b-l-e-y. We look forward to having an inspiring conversation with you soon.