Sachin Jain: Insights from a Visionary Change Agent

In this episode of Step Wise, Dr. Foster Mobley sits down with Dr. Sachin Jain, president and CEO of Scan, to discuss navigating leadership challenges in today’s turbulent healthcare landscape. Dr. Jain, a Harvard-trained physician with vast experience in both public and private sectors, offers insights into leading through crisis, fostering transparency, and balancing authenticity with performance demands. The conversation dives into the importance of authenticity, the delicate art of setting boundaries, and the vital role of psychological safety. Dr. Jain’s reflections on truth-telling, vulnerability, and clarity are essential listening for leaders at all levels.

• the challenge facing leaders from a dynamic and tumultuous world
• his take on authenticity (versus "letting everything hang out")
•  authenticity in the era of "curated personas"
• his role and belief as a "truth teller"
• trust and safety as antecedents to authenticity
• the underlying and continual need for "4K clarity"

Learn more about Foster at fostermobleymt.com or follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn at Foster Mobley.

www.instagram.com/fostermobley
https://www.linkedin.com/in/fostermobley/

To purchase Dr. Foster Mobley's book, Leadersh*t: Rethinking the True Path to Great Leading, click here.

Transcript

00;00;07;03 - 00;00;39;01

Dr. Foster Mobley

Welcome back to Step Wise, Deep Conversations with Inspiring Leaders, where we talk about worldviews and their journeys undertaken to their present level of understanding. Today's guest is Doctor Sachin Jain, president and CEO of Scan, a health care organization devoted to the care of seniors. Sachin is a Harvard trained physician and Harvard Business School graduate, possessing rare vision and insight into health care today, from its strengths to its disparities and where it can be improved.

00;00;39;02 - 00;01;02;10

Dr. Foster Mobley

He's worked in the government for Health and Human Services as a senior advisor to the administrator for the center for Medicare and Medicaid Studies, CMS, and has served as the first acting director of CMI, the center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation. He's a widely followed and influential thought leader about the industry and the challenges its leaders must face.

00;01;02;13 - 00;01;50;01

Dr. Foster Mobley

Also in full transparency. He's someone with whom I've worked for the past four years as his coach, and have observed his journey for much longer than that. Newly married to Jen, Jennifer and the dad to an adorable German shepherd, Koji. I interviewed Sachin late last year and several things stood out. Navigating one's entry and onboarding a CEO in the midst of the heaviest part of the pandemic, his role as a change agent with clear board mandate and to well-respected and successful organization, navigating the delicate balance between transparency and responding to workforces needs for clarity, direction and sometimes calling his take on authenticity and how core values drive everything and give meaning to a leader's actions.

00;01;50;03 - 00;01;54;06

Dr. Foster Mobley

I hope you enjoy this conversation with Doctor Sachin Jane.

00;01;54;09 - 00;02;17;23

Dr. Sachin Jain

But I want your executive to give a very for the last 20 years of your life in the area of healthcare change and transformation, and I want to work in a number of settings around trying to take care of.

00;02;17;26 - 00;02;27;25

Dr. Sachin Jain

Industry, government, academia, and work. What you.

00;02;27;28 - 00;02;29;10

Dr. Sachin Jain

Think?

00;02;29;13 - 00;02;53;17

Dr. Foster Mobley

Yeah. The like. Would you get busy and do something for a change? But let's start with the environment that you're faced now. You took over your current responsibility as CEO of Scan, really in the middle of the pandemic or the beginning of the pandemic. So your first year or more dealt with a virtual workforce, and then after that kind of a hybrid workforce.

00;02;53;19 - 00;03;05;26

Dr. Foster Mobley

And and that's one of the thousand factors right now, when you think about the meta environment in which leaders find themselves today, what are the most salient issues that you're having to deal with?

00;03;06;00 - 00;03;42;26

Dr. Sachin Jain

I would say, a lot of leaders are walking on eggshells, because I think there are so many different, you know, potential, you know, grenades on which one could step at a moment's notice, sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally. You know, I think a lot about leaders right now in the midst of the Israel-Palestine crisis, who went on a limb to make a statement and by some measures made the wrong statement and the kind of collateral reaction to that.

00;03;42;29 - 00;04;14;16

Dr. Sachin Jain

I think about people who made similar proclamations and statements coming out of the George Floyd issues that arose amidst the Black Lives Matter movement a few years ago, and this tone of threading the needle, of kind of being a voice for rectitude, for social justice, for change, at the same time not getting embroiled in it, because we all have jobs and missions outside of the the mission of the day.

00;04;14;18 - 00;04;37;03

Dr. Sachin Jain

And, and then I think about, you know, the hybrid work environment coming out of the pandemic in Hindu philosophy, they talk about people having four different phases of their lives, and the world having four different phases, actually. And the fourth phase is what people call to call you. The best English translation for that would be the apocalypse, when everything just starts to go, go to go to hack.

00;04;37;03 - 00;04;45;21

Dr. Sachin Jain

And I would say a lot of people would probably describe the era that we're in, you know, as being call you gift in the.

00;04;46;23 - 00;04;57;01

Dr. Sachin Jain

Fabric is, you know, kind of fraying. Norms are changing and, you know, rapidly. And there's there's just a lot of, I think, stress and tension in the system.

00;04;57;03 - 00;05;22;17

Dr. Foster Mobley

I read that notion in a recent book called Master of Change by Brad Stolberg, highly recommended, by the way, and I was thinking about it in terms of my life. Right. So what you do is in my in I'm in the third phase of hopefully. Well, the third phase of for.

00;05;22;19 - 00;05;23;15

Dr. Foster Mobley

Yeah. To be clear.

00;05;23;15 - 00;05;40;24

Dr. Sachin Jain

There's two different four phases that there's the four phases of the of the person. There's like the you know, which I think you're probably referring to your third phase, which is, you know, translated learn, earn and return. And you're probably in the return phase before you go into your kind of ascetic phase where you just unplug completely from society.

00;05;40;26 - 00;06;01;01

Dr. Sachin Jain

You know, I'm talking about, like, this broader arc of the universe phase where, you know, and, and this idea that, like, everything is just kind of on fire right now. And it is, you know, people get canceled and doxed and it's harder today than it was eight years ago. And, you know, to the subject of your book, it's also a time where people expect you to be very authentic.

00;06;01;01 - 00;06;08;16

Dr. Sachin Jain

And there's like, a need for authentic leaders, being authentic in this era also requires just being really careful.

00;06;08;19 - 00;06;31;24

Dr. Foster Mobley

So what do you see best leaders do in this need for people are looking for realness, reality, connection, depth, meaning. And yet you can be canceled in a moment's notice. And and you've still got to get performance. You still have to. You're responsible for driving performance with and through a workforce.

00;06;31;26 - 00;07;02;22

Dr. Sachin Jain

Yeah. I mean, I would say one of the things that I've been kind of confused about is really how one shows up, right? Like in this kind of, environment, you know, and this time when I would say a lot of people struggle with what they expect from their companies, what they expect from their leaders. People want you to be authentic, but oftentimes they want you to be authentic in the way that they want you to be authentic, not which, of course, is at odds with being authentic.

00;07;02;25 - 00;07;24;05

Dr. Sachin Jain

I've, I would say, like, you know, my own journey as somebody being led as opposed to being a leader. The thing I always wanted from people was people who told me what was really going on. And oftentimes what I got from people was some kind of inauthentic, less, less than kind of absolute, absolutely transparent view of things.

00;07;24;07 - 00;07;26;19

Dr. Sachin Jain

And I struggle with that quite a bit.

00;07;26;21 - 00;08;00;11

Dr. Foster Mobley

It's interesting. This raises a thought for me. I was chatting with your friend Bobby Zany recently, a couple of days ago, actually, and on this very, very topic. And what strikes me is how much easier, he has it as the, creator of a new company, a new entity than you do taking over an existing 35 year old organization with its own norms because he's talking about, hey, I can make a comment about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict because that's who I am and what's important to me.

00;08;00;11 - 00;08;13;02

Dr. Foster Mobley

And I think that's important for a workforce. I've got 250 people, most of whom are new in the last six months. So he's got he's got a different runway than you do. Yeah, I made.

00;08;13;02 - 00;08;29;27

Dr. Sachin Jain

A comment too, but I, I wanted to make sure I made a comment that was clear and concise and didn't say more than I needed to say. Obviously something you and I have worked on in my coaching in some ways is is actually just saying what you need to say and not not a sentence more or not a sentence less.

00;08;29;29 - 00;08;52;00

Dr. Sachin Jain

I think sometimes people confuse being authentic with like letting everything hang out and they're they're actually not the same things. And, you know, a big part of being a leader is showing up in the ways that people need and want you to show up, but it's also being mindful of all the different ways that people can perceive your so-called authenticity.

00;08;52;03 - 00;09;24;28

Dr. Sachin Jain

And that's a very hard act for anyone, which is to perceive the 7 or 8 different ways that someone might read the same email or hear the same comment. I'll tell you like, something that really kind of struck a chord with me recently is I made I wrote some comments that were critical about a big tech companies health care strategy, and someone came up to me and said, I, you know, I spent an evening with someone, at that tech company and just thinking it was a just to get to know you and she says, you know, I really like you after spending some time with you, but I have to tell you, I really

00;09;24;28 - 00;10;00;22

Dr. Sachin Jain

hated you after reading your, your, your some of your critical comments of our company and our strategy. And, and it is amazing how much data there is about people out there and how much we want to judge people based on data, but we oftentimes lack the humility to recognize we don't really know people. And so like, you know, what is authenticity in this era of like, curated personas, curated social media personas and lives and, and people really feeling like they know you because they see a piece of you as opposed to them actually knowing it.

00;10;00;26 - 00;10;19;12

Dr. Foster Mobley

That raises the question for me, such an you are very out loud about your opinions about various things affecting health care, and my sense is that those are authentically felt, they're genuine. They're why do you do that?

00;10;19;15 - 00;10;40;21

Dr. Sachin Jain

I think the health care industry is general orientation has been one of like, tell me pretty lies. And it's you know, what I think about what's happened over the last 20 years, foster. And you've been around it, too. It's like things have gotten pretty much worse for everyone. But like, if you listen to most people, you know, most high level talk about it, most people wouldn't say that.

00;10;40;21 - 00;10;59;26

Dr. Sachin Jain

That's what's happened. Right? And like, I think that there's a disconnection, there's a disconnect between the happy talk and the real world. And I'm I'm trying to be, you know, a voice for, for kind of the real world, in all of this.

00;11;00;02 - 00;11;04;12

Dr. Foster Mobley

So that speaks to your true north. So what's your true north with all of this? Why are you doing this?

00;11;04;18 - 00;11;31;01

Dr. Sachin Jain

It comes to my training from a public policy perspective, but also for my training as a physician perspective. And I'll just walk through both. You know, from a public policy perspective, one of the most important kind of thinkers, you know, is a guy named John Kingdon. But he, you know, he and another policy professor named Deborah Stone, both essentially articulated that how you define a problem informed influences how you solve the problem.

00;11;31;03 - 00;11;54;16

Dr. Sachin Jain

And society doesn't spend enough time with an articulation of what the problem is. You know, let me give you a couple of, you know, a couple of examples. Just non-healthcare like the Ford Pinto had had all of its quality issues and that could be told as a story of like quality management, or it could be told as a story of like manufacturing issues that could be told as a story of public policy.

00;11;54;19 - 00;12;03;27

Dr. Sachin Jain

And so like how you define what were both Stone and and Kingdon argued, is like how you define a problem, influences how you solve a problem.

00;12;04;00 - 00;12;05;01

Dr. Foster Mobley

In the.

00;12;05;01 - 00;12;31;03

Dr. Sachin Jain

Medical version of that is like, if you don't get the right diagnosis, right, the underlying issue, you're going to actually get the wrong treatment. And I believe that so much of what we've struggled with as an industry is the inability to act like, properly articulate. The problem has basically led us to develop kind of false, you know, solutions in with false sense.

00;12;31;06 - 00;12;52;29

Dr. Sachin Jain

You know, and like, I'll tell you, like, people have been so anti-pharma, but for the last two decades, I might be one of the few Harvard trained physicians who’s not anti-pharma. But, you know, we have a pharma pricing problem. But we do not have a pharma innovation problem because the pharma industry continues to produce, you know, drugs that are solving problems that weren't sold before.

00;12;53;01 - 00;13;13;27

Dr. Sachin Jain

But the narrative that had developed around the Harvard medical institutions in the early 2000 was one of like, oh, like the NIH develops an understanding of the disease, and then the drug companies just commercialize NIH science, and we're just giving them away free. And the story got so negative about these companies, which, you know, for all intents and purposes, are super heroic.

00;13;13;27 - 00;13;33;29

Dr. Sachin Jain

But but again, the story of them has not been told in a way that allows us to develop effective public policies. So, again, my role just to go back to make it personal again, I believe, you know, that being a truth teller, or at least sharing my truth, is important in advancing the conversation around what needs to be done.

00;13;34;02 - 00;13;46;01

Dr. Foster Mobley

And so the answer to the to what end question is to advance what needs to be done in health care that you're very passionate about. And that's your that's your mission.

00;13;46;03 - 00;13;46;28

Dr. Sachin Jain

Yes.

00;13;47;00 - 00;14;02;07

Dr. Foster Mobley

Sir. Yes. Yeah. So offer it to you is truth telling with respect to that. And you're trying to stimulate good, good thinking good, analysis, etc.. Right.

00;14;02;10 - 00;14;04;01

Dr. Sachin Jain

Exactly, exactly.

00;14;04;04 - 00;14;20;08

Dr. Foster Mobley

Okay, cool. If you're true North was different than that. If you're true north was such driven, if it was ego driven, if it was trying to make a loud, noise driven, that would not be authentic. You just be a loud voice.

00;14;20;13 - 00;14;44;15

Dr. Sachin Jain

Yeah. Look, I or I would be authentically obnoxious. I mean, you know, if that's if then if that's who I was, I'd be authentic to myself. But I don't, you know, I don't think authentic necessarily means productive. Right. But to be productive, the authentic one needs to both think about, you know, your message and then also like what you're trying to accomplish and how people hear you.

00;14;44;15 - 00;15;02;06

Dr. Sachin Jain

What I was expecting. You're a medical student. I'll always remember this. I mean, this one will. I'll take this one to the grave. I had a priest doctor named David Ellman who said, I went to see a patient. I introduced myself as Sachin and then proceeded to do a history and physical. And then, you know, we walked out and he says, oh, let's debrief this.

00;15;02;06 - 00;15;21;22

Dr. Sachin Jain

And he says, let's talk about your introduction. I said, okay, what did you not like about my introduction? And he says, why don't you state again how you introduce yourself to the patient? I said, I introduced him as, hi, my name is Sachin. And he said, let's pause there. He said, are they is this patient coming to see Sachin.

00;15;21;22 - 00;15;49;02

Dr. Sachin Jain

And I said, no. He said the patient's here to see student Doctor Jain. They there is an expectation that they have that gets conveyed through how you show up. And I've thought about that print this concept as it relates to every role I've had since then, which is the patient doesn't want to be such an. And then what I became a full fledged no doctor, nobody who says, oh, I want to meet, I want to meet such.

00;15;49;02 - 00;16;06;26

Dr. Sachin Jain

And when you go in to see someone, you want to meet doctor Jain. And this is Guy. This person is an expert in the things that he's an expert in. And he introduces himself as an expert. So similarly, as a CEO leading an organization, you know, people certainly want to know that I'm human and I, I bleed and I smile and I think about the same things that they do.

00;16;06;26 - 00;16;29;21

Dr. Sachin Jain

And but they also want to know that I'm, I'm the CEO, that I'm in charge, and I'm and I understand what the company where the company is and what it needs. And so there's this fine line between being yourself, but then also being who people need. And that's the servant aspect of it is it's really about thinking about what the other person needs and then being about the truest form of that, you know, truest yourself form of that.

00;16;29;21 - 00;16;49;27

Dr. Sachin Jain

What people don't need is, is for me to show up with all my baggage, all of my internal dialog and some dialog. And I think that's where, frankly, a lot of early career leaders and I was certainly one of these people, get confused about the job and what it requires. These days it's very common to talk about boundaries.

00;16;50;00 - 00;17;01;02

Dr. Sachin Jain

And I actually think that authenticity is actually shaped by good boundaries. And this is, you know, something you I've worked with, worked on in our coaching, our job is to, is to, is to do our job well.

00;17;01;04 - 00;17;25;14

Dr. Foster Mobley

The notion of authenticity and letting says that there is some other centeredness to to that, that you're judging about those boundaries based on what others need and want from you. And yet you're talking about a fine line. It's not only other centers, it is the message you're trying to get across the task you're trying to accomplish, the eventual goal of of the solution.

00;17;25;15 - 00;17;50;04

Dr. Foster Mobley

What are the antecedents to authenticity in the workplace? Like what allows, ten years ago, the conversation about authenticity, or 15 years ago, the conversation about authenticity was not top of mind for people. We talked about goal driven. We talked about we didn't talk about radical candor, but that was really more about telling our truths than than some of the dimensions of authenticity we're talking about today.

00;17;50;04 - 00;18;22;03

Dr. Foster Mobley

If this workforce and the environmental dynamics are such, Amazon's here, I need more meaning. I want more realness in my relationship with my boss. I want to have the chance to call my own dance card when I need time off our work or whatever. Those things are. To me, it is. It's implying a different relationship between organization and employee, boss and employee one allows the boss to be a little bit more authentic.

00;18;22;04 - 00;18;29;21

Dr. Foster Mobley

We're not talking about 0 to 10 year, 1 to 10. What are the what are the antecedents to greater authenticity in the workplace?

00;18;29;23 - 00;18;48;10

Dr. Sachin Jain

Very popular is this to talk about trust. Trust is very important. But I also think it is, you know, it's safety. It's this idea that you can you can be who you are without consequence. But I think it's important that it's about being who you are in the context of the work and wanting to do the job that you have.

00;18;48;10 - 00;19;13;28

Dr. Sachin Jain

It does get confused and confusing at times. And I actually think the work and the mission of the organization that's the true north and the authenticity is in service of the mission, not vice versa. Authenticity by itself, I would, I would say, is not a tiny independent virtue. Like if you're authentic without results, authentic without mission orientation, you're authentic without performance, that's fine.

00;19;14;00 - 00;19;18;03

Dr. Sachin Jain

But the authenticity has to be in service of the mission of the of the organization.

00;19;18;03 - 00;19;39;18

Dr. Foster Mobley

I get in line with what you're saying is that the true north for them is mission, but it is also goals, it's purpose of your job, all of those kind of things. What's the role of the leader in setting the boundaries for for safety, for kind of how candid we are for cultural norms, all of that stuff. What does the leader do?

00;19;39;18 - 00;19;39;28

Dr. Foster Mobley

There?

00;19;40;04 - 00;19;56;13

Dr. Sachin Jain

I think I think the way a leader can do this is by making his his or her presence felt. And I think there's ways in which technology is enabled that it's much easier today to have an all team meeting. It's much easier to have an all, because of the visibility of that you can kind of project to everyone.

00;19;56;16 - 00;20;29;18

Dr. Sachin Jain

I think it's harder because it's people are now increasingly not seeing each other or touching each other, feeling each other in the flesh. And so there is this third dimension of engagement that is missing. And I really think that is one of the barriers that we all have to authenticity. I became CEO of scan in the in the throes of the early days of the pandemic, and I do think it would have been an easier onboarding for me with the organization if they've been able to kind of see me in person and feel my energy versus seeing me as a talking head, you know, beaming in from my living room.

00;20;29;18 - 00;20;32;13

Dr. Sachin Jain

So I think these are these are things we do have to think about.

00;20;32;13 - 00;20;36;06

Dr. Foster Mobley

Yeah. Interesting. They had no context for you.

00;20;36;08 - 00;20;37;00

Dr. Sachin Jain

That's right.

00;20;37;03 - 00;20;41;17

Dr. Foster Mobley

You're trying to lead without context or without a challenge. So how did you get through? I mean.

00;20;41;17 - 00;21;01;29

Dr. Sachin Jain

I would say by being deliberate about, you know, sort of them getting to know me and me getting to know them. I would say, you know, one of the best piece of advice I read was in Jim Citron, this book, you know, I'm, you know, you're now you're in charge, so what? Or something like that. But it was some version of, like, write a letter to the company, let people know who you are and what you stand for and what your values are.

00;21;02;00 - 00;21;20;01

Dr. Sachin Jain

And even still, I think some people read it as, oh, this is just performative, you know, stuff from the CEO, not necessarily recognizing, but I always say this to people, I think a lot of our job as leaders is not just to do the work, it's that it's not just to to to listen to people and to engage with people.

00;21;20;03 - 00;21;43;08

Dr. Sachin Jain

But a lot of our job is to actually tell people how to feel. And a lot of what we're doing is conveying for them how they should feel about a set of changes or set of activities that are under underway. I think one of the challenges I had, I think, was that, again, both my leadership team as as well as, the broader company didn't really like, understand me and didn't know to trust me.

00;21;43;08 - 00;21;52;05

Dr. Sachin Jain

And I would say it probably took two years longer than it would have. Take it. Just comparing it to a prior leadership onboarding that I experienced, you know, at another company, you're.

00;21;52;05 - 00;21;55;23

Dr. Foster Mobley

Here, you're telling them how to think and feel, and they're not buying it.

00;21;55;26 - 00;22;14;16

Dr. Sachin Jain

Exactly, exactly. And I and I think began in part because we had won their hearts and minds. Yet I would say my leadership was a big cultural departure from my predecessor. And I think, again, the other thing was to say that's a challenge to authenticity. Foster. It's something we haven't really talked about a lot, but I think is a really big deal.

00;22;14;19 - 00;22;42;27

Dr. Sachin Jain

Is people project qualities on the people based on the position in the title. So they're like they when they meet you, they're not just meeting you, but they're also meeting you in the context of 20 other CEOs that they've dealt with in their career, or five other CEOs or three other CEOs and their opinions about this role are very well shaped and formed, either based on people they've interacted with, books they've read, movies they've read.

00;22;43;02 - 00;23;16;00

Dr. Sachin Jain

So I would say the CEO role in particular is pretty, pretty fraught because there are actually a lot of not very good dudes who are CEOs. And I think people project that narcissism, the duplicity, you know, the selfishness, the corporate doublespeak. So I think it's one of the biggest barriers that people have to authenticity. I think one of the most interesting turning points for me in my time at scan was actually when one of my leaders said, you know, we talk a lot about psychologically safe psychological safety of the workforce.

00;23;16;02 - 00;23;34;10

Dr. Sachin Jain

I want to ask you about your psychological safety. This was Nancy. And do you feel safe sharing with us your opinions? And I said, it's funny that you say that. No, I don't, I feel judged. I feel like two years was two years into running the company to, you know, the, two half years during the company.

00;23;34;12 - 00;23;52;08

Dr. Sachin Jain

I feel judged. I feel like people still don't really know me or want to know me. I feel like people read into things in ways that are not necessarily consistent with who I am. And so, yeah, I don't feel particularly psychologically safe. I thought it was such an interesting observation that she brought up.

00;23;52;11 - 00;24;04;02

Dr. Foster Mobley

She is asking about safety and vulnerability. What's the relationship of vulnerability to authenticity? Trust. The kind of the track that we've been on. Why do you need to say those things?

00;24;04;04 - 00;24;37;05

Dr. Sachin Jain

I think that psychological safety is the enabler of the authenticity, right? I think otherwise there is a walking on eggshells component. I mean, I think what the biggest misconceptions about the CEO job is, is the sort of all powerful ness of it. Right? And I don't think that that's true at all, because I think, you know, where if you're a servant leader, or if you know you are responsible to your board, your responsible to your employees, you're responsible to external stakeholders, you might be responsible to shareholders.

00;24;37;07 - 00;24;39;00

Dr. Sachin Jain

And that's that's tough.

00;24;39;03 - 00;24;59;07

Dr. Foster Mobley

And yet, as you mentioned, part of the responsibility is to win the hearts and minds of people because, you know, that's going to kind of align and put people on the right path to be successful. So in addition to your role modeling, what else can a great leader, what else do you see great leaders do to win the hearts and minds of people?

00;24;59;10 - 00;25;25;00

Dr. Sachin Jain

It's vulnerability. I mean, I think vulnerability, like one of the biggest kind of tropes about, you know, senior leaders is their invulnerability. And I think, you know, being selectively vulnerable in ways that build trust, like letting people know you don't necessarily know all the answers, letting people know that you, you actually need help from time to time, letting people know that you got issues.

00;25;25;00 - 00;25;40;18

Dr. Sachin Jain

I reached out to you to plan a weekend. Not something I always do. And, you know, he said to me, hey, I, you know, I might be late to respond this week because I got a flood in my house and I got insurance issues, and I said, you know what? I totally get it. I've got termite issues right now.

00;25;40;18 - 00;25;58;27

Dr. Sachin Jain

It's completely all consuming. Take your time, do your thing. And again, I think in that small exchange, I let him know that, like, I get it, you know, there's a I was respecting his humanity by conveying some of my own take. You know, the next time I reach out to him, it's not going to be about our sales forecasting.

00;25;58;27 - 00;26;02;23

Dr. Sachin Jain

It's going to be about his flood and whether his family is okay. And he's avoided mold.

00;26;02;29 - 00;26;08;15

Dr. Foster Mobley

So each of those moments I believe, better connects us with the people that we're working with and that.

00;26;08;15 - 00;26;09;27

Dr. Sachin Jain

We leave 100.

00;26;09;27 - 00;26;32;12

Dr. Foster Mobley

Percent. You know, such a vulnerability is better than a big topic of you for the development of your team. You and I have had these conversations over and over again, and it makes perfect sense. Logically. I know that, you know, if I take a couple of steps toward openness and candor and wellness, that word, others will likely follow that.

00;26;32;14 - 00;26;36;02

Dr. Foster Mobley

What prevents people from being more vulnerable in the workplace?

00;26;36;04 - 00;27;06;08

Dr. Sachin Jain

I think it's ego is fear of consequences. It's, you know, past experiences. It's really a fear of judgment. But but I would say is the vulnerability to me is very trust building because at least it allows me to kind of recognize that the, you know, people see what I'm seeing. And so if they don't see it, then if I'm if they're not necessarily conveying that they see it, it creates real concern for me that maybe they're not on top of things or seeing things the way they need to see them.

00;27;06;15 - 00;27;18;21

Dr. Foster Mobley

If I come to work for such, and what are the 4 or 5 things that I need to pay most of the attention that will allow me to be most successful, and I'm assuming kind of vulnerability and reality.

00;27;18;28 - 00;27;38;18

Dr. Sachin Jain

Vulnerability is key. I mean, I would say vulnerability is key, I think in orientation towards collaborative problem solving. I would say, you know, kind of a little like laser focus on balancing what's good for people with also what's get what what's good for the business. You know, I think sometimes people don't get that. That's a balancing act. You know, it's not all about your people.

00;27;38;18 - 00;28;06;14

Dr. Sachin Jain

It's not all about the business. It's about, you know, an optimization exercise. I would say betting on talent. There's a certain sense of security that you have to have to bet on talent, security and yourself, security and others. What I see people kind of not always gravitating towards best candidates, having high standards. It kind of makes me worried about, you know, people's own psychology getting in the way of their, their performance.

00;28;06;20 - 00;28;15;29

Dr. Foster Mobley

Oh, really? Can you spot that weak one? I was guessing that, I was guessing that.

00;28;16;01 - 00;28;35;09

Dr. Sachin Jain

It's that you can't see it in an interview because I think people study up a lot, but, yeah, you know, one of my favorite actually interview techniques is to just let people know that they have the job in my first conversation, let them think they have the job. And and then, you know, let them relax and then you see who they really are.

00;28;35;11 - 00;28;43;20

Dr. Foster Mobley

What are you reading, listening to? What's influencing your thinking these days as a leader in this crazy time? So it's interesting.

00;28;43;20 - 00;29;05;18

Dr. Sachin Jain

I, you know, you and I have our fledgling men's group, I am also part of a group of guys I know from college, you know, there. And we're all in different roles and health care. One's a researcher, one's an orthopedic surgeon, one's a, you know, in private practice and is a cardiologist and, and, in semi academic practice.

00;29;05;18 - 00;29;25;12

Dr. Sachin Jain

And I just, you know, learned a ton, you know, through that from where, you know, I'm, I'm dying to crack open Isaacson's book. You know, Elon Musk, you know, I'm aggressively reading The Atlantic and Arthur Brooks a bit, you know, and then I would also say I'm also very deeply enmeshed. I need to formalize this a little bit more.

00;29;25;15 - 00;29;41;09

Dr. Sachin Jain

But in in the study of psychiatry and just really understanding, I just, I just think that human behavior is at the source of everything great in the world and everything terrible in the world. And, you know, understand the drivers of those behavior and understanding how to change behavior. I think all that is so important.

00;29;41;11 - 00;29;54;00

Dr. Foster Mobley

What's the advice you give to the younger surgeon about, how you lead people, if you could, could take what you know now into the younger section when you're first starting to lead people. What's that? What's that clear message.

00;29;54;02 - 00;30;18;05

Dr. Sachin Jain

So I think it's the importance of just, you know, continuously striving towards real clarity, real visual clarity, high resolution, high def 4K clarity of situations. And, you know, my favorite thing about young AI? The thing that I hear young people say all the time that I remember saying when I was a younger person that all kinds of young people say to each other is, I'm a good judge of character.

00;30;18;07 - 00;30;41;21

Dr. Sachin Jain

And what they're really saying to you is that, you know, they think they're a good judge of character. And what becomes clear as you age that you say less and less is I think most people are pretty humble about whether they're really good judges of people or character, because people surprise you. And I think it's that ability to be surprise and change your mind that actually keeps your game strong.

00;30;41;24 - 00;31;04;15

Dr. Sachin Jain

And where I think people lose people's game weekends is when they, they believe that they know more than they do and they see more than they do. So I would just say like clarity, clarity for me is, is everything. And I would just encourage you to always seek clarity and have people around you who give that clarity help give you that clarity, clarity of what's going on, clarity and yourself clarity and others.

00;31;04;21 - 00;31;22;23

Dr. Foster Mobley

There's two there are two elements that seem to underpin that. For me, as you say, that one is humility, the willingness to take it on and listen and really listen openly. And the second is kind of this it's over and over these days, but this learning mindset, this growth mindset that I always try to learn, always try to learn more.

00;31;22;23 - 00;31;26;23

Dr. Foster Mobley

There's different approaches, etc.. So thank you. Appreciate it.

00;31;26;25 - 00;31;39;11

Dr. Foster Mobley

Thank you for a deeper exploration of your own journey. You can find tools, stories and reflection questions in my book Leadership Rethinking the True Path to Great Leading, or.

00;31;39;14 - 00;31;41;23

Dr. Foster Mobley

By following me on Social Media.

00;31;41;25 - 00;31;45;12

Dr. Foster Mobley

I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram as Foster Mobley.

00;31;45;15 - 00;31;48;14

Dr. Foster Mobley

Until next time, step wise.

00;31;48;16 - 00;32;17;23

Jana Devan

Thank you for listening to Step Wise. Step Wise is brought to you by Doctor Foster Mobley, edited and promoted by Zettist. You can listen to more episodes wherever you stream podcasts. Find out more at Foster Mobley MT Dot Com or follow us on social media at Foster Mobley. That's f-o-s-t-e-r-m-o-b-l-e-y, we look forward to having an inspiring conversation with you soon.