Anthony Stephan: Leading Business Performance with the 3 A's - Attention, Awareness and Acceptance

In this episode of Step Wise, Dr. Foster Mobley sits down with Anthony Stephan, Chief Learning Officer for Deloitte U.S., for a thought-provoking conversation on leadership, learning, and the future of workforce development. Anthony shares his inspiring journey at Deloitte, where he leads a talented team dedicated to advancing the skills of 173,000 professionals to stay ahead in an ever-changing marketplace.

In this episode, we discuss: 

• requirements for upscaling talent in response to environmental challenges
• how a world-class professional services organization educates and develops people
• how he views Deloitte's responsibility to use a "yes and" strategy to develop business skills and human skills
• his characterization of the 3 A's - attention, awareness and acceptance as core human skills
• how the firm values, and clarity about them are central to training and development
• his personal experience of evolving from successful business leader to a more deeply authentic approach
• how Deloitte measures the effectiveness of their learning and development efforts

Anthony also shares how his personal values, commitment to growth, and focus on “not knowing” have shaped his leadership philosophy. This episode offers actionable insights for executives navigating rapid change and fostering a culture of inclusivity, innovation, and growth.

🎧 Listen now and take the next step in your leadership journey.

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Transcript

00;00;07;05 - 00;00;46;10

Dr. Foster Mobley

Welcome back to Step Wise. A series of deep conversations with inspiring leaders about who they are, how they see the world and their journeys that have influenced their worldviews and values. Today's guest is Anthony Stephan, the chief learning officer for Deloitte U.S. and someone I've known for quite a few years now. Having worked with Anthony and his twin brother Michael in their various senior roles at Deloitte, and then he's got a cool and, in my opinion, daunting job at Deloitte as he leads a talented team to help the firm stay ahead of the changing marketplace by advancing the skills of its people and accelerating the agility and innovations of their strategy and experiences.

00;00;46;10 - 00;01;16;03

Dr. Foster Mobley

Anthony is a self-proclaimed passionate learner and supporter of leader development, someone whose thoughts on the topic have been featured in The Wall Street Journal, Forbes and Business Chief. In today's session, several things stand out to me. First, his take on the generational differences in how people learn. Second, Deloitte's Technology Academy research design and delivered in 120 days to help the firm's talent stay abreast of what they call hot skills.

00;01;16;05 - 00;01;36;18

Dr. Foster Mobley

Third, how Deloitte use technology and tools to survey 25,000 of their people in the development of programming. Fourth, the importance of language and how values played and continue to play a part in running a healthy, progressive and sustainable firm. I hope you enjoy meeting and hearing from Anthony Stephan.

00;01;36;18 - 00;01;50;20

Anthony Stephan

I think if we drew a venn diagram of the things that are really meaningful to the two of us, there is a tremendous amount of overlap. I think about very consistent values to things that are important to us, but I think growth sits at the heart of that. So super excited for the conversation.

00;01;50;22 - 00;02;04;12

Dr. Foster Mobley

Anthony, there are many things affecting today's workforce. When you think about your workforce, what are the most important factors that are influencing the team members at Deloitte, and how is Deloitte experiencing the impacts of some of those things?

00;02;04;15 - 00;02;31;17

Anthony Stephan

Our greatest asset is our people and our consistent commitment to investing in the growth and development of our people is absolutely critical to our ability to serve our clients with the greatest distinction. There's a few things I would say that jump out. Number one is the upskilling of our people in the direction of a very dynamic market remains a constant priority.

00;02;31;18 - 00;02;56;00

Anthony Stephan

So this shows itself in the pace of change in tech and the ability to upgrade and upskill people at scale at an accelerated pace. So, for example, we made a unbelievable investment a couple years ago to launch our Deloitte Technology Academy. And this again was focused on the acceleration of skills in the area of hard skills at scale.

00;02;56;02 - 00;03;25;06

Anthony Stephan

And so we have to be able to do that in weeks, not months and years. And the dynamic nature of the market, it was pretty unbelievable. My first real effort in the learning space at the firm was in 2022. I was asked to join a number of members of our executive committee to look at the future of leadership, and we wanted a 120 day sprint, and we talked to all of our professionals to really get to the heart of what the future of leadership was.

00;03;25;12 - 00;03;54;02

Anthony Stephan

And there's a couple of things that stood out. Number one, we learned that we are extraordinary at investing in the development of business skills to perform jobs, right, almost at a level that is unmatched relative to our peers. And there was a very consistent drumbeat from our professionals that they look to the firm to continue to develop human skills.

00;03;54;07 - 00;04;22;13

Anthony Stephan

So we left this 120 days, and we recognized that the strategy for the future was a yes and strategy. Yes. We need to continue to invest in the development of business skills to perform jobs. And yes, we need to double down on the development of human skills to allow our people to reach their full potential. This, yes, and strategy became the construct for how we invest in the growth and development of our people.

00;04;22;13 - 00;04;42;25

Anthony Stephan

It shows itself in our Deloitte Technology Academy, which is the acceleration of hard skills at scale, and the launch of our Deloitte leadership and Human Potential offerings, which is really leaning into a set of human skills that help our people grow to be better at work, better at home, and better in society.

00;04;43;01 - 00;05;07;26

Dr. Foster Mobley

That's really amazing and lovely to hear. I'm thrilled. Could not be more thrilled about that. One of the questions I was just curious about for you is what is the role of awareness? You know, self-awareness, awareness of others or consciousness on the part of the firm and its leaders in dealing with all of these crazy changes where people are now bringing more of their humanity into the workplace?

00;05;07;29 - 00;05;28;11

Anthony Stephan

Yeah. Foster, I got two things that came to my mind. I'm smiling from ear to ear because I cannot believe the language you're using. One of the most fascinating insights that came out of our 120 day sprint. We pored through talent survey data. We used specific tools to reach 25,000 people for smaller surveys. We used all of these tools.

00;05;28;16 - 00;05;56;07

Anthony Stephan

And what I learned foster, is that the language people are using around human skills is evolving. So, look, you and I could look back over the last decade and the idea of empathy and curiosity being embedded into businesses. We're seeing an enormous rise. Foster the language our people were using when we did this sprint. Attention. Awareness. Acceptance. I called it the A's.

00;05;56;09 - 00;06;23;26

Anthony Stephan

It was this growth of all of this new language that people were using to describe the human skills that they were in search of. And so we started to move our experiences and our learnings in the direction of attention and acceptance and awareness. It's not that empathy and curiosity and compassion aren't embedded into the experiences we create, but we had to acknowledge that there was this evolution.

00;06;23;26 - 00;06;28;27

Anthony Stephan

But this is the language that our people are now using. So how do we move in that direction?

00;06;28;27 - 00;06;52;19

Dr. Foster Mobley

How is the firm's culture evolved in the past number of years, especially in your time as chief learning officer, to be more inclusive, to be more whole, to be more well, to be more participative than it typically has been. And Deloitte has always been a an exemplar in being a very well-run firm. And I'm guessing you've seen some pretty dramatic culture shifts recently.

00;06;52;23 - 00;07;17;05

Anthony Stephan

You know, one of the things that I am most proud of in the firm is the consistency of our values. When you look at what we have been experiencing, which is a heightened, much more visible, much more difficult level of situations that we're dealing with, the importance for our values to be at the forefront of every conversation, clearly understood.

00;07;17;11 - 00;07;39;16

Anthony Stephan

You know, you talked, you used the word earlier around agency. Okay. I kind of look at this and say, we've got to embrace agency. Got to find ways to harness that agency. And one of the ways that we can do that is being clear on our values. If we're clear on our values, what we do is we empower the agency of others to live within those values.

00;07;39;16 - 00;08;01;27

Anthony Stephan

And oh, by the way, call us out as leaders and as a firm when people believe we are not executing on those values and look, values lead to really difficult conversations. It's a really, really big word. It has a lot of positive connotation, but it leads to difficult conversation. You know, first I remember you and I had a conversation a couple of years ago.

00;08;01;27 - 00;08;30;15

Anthony Stephan

I called you seeking out advice with great admiration. I'm like, you know what? What you do for a living. I think that's what I want to do at some point in my life. I actually went back and got my International Coaching Federation fully certified ICF Executive Coaching certification, and in the first week of taking that course, the leader leading that course introduced this concept of not knowing it was a complete unraveling.

00;08;30;20 - 00;09;01;07

Anthony Stephan

Here I am, 28 years in the consulting business and the only thing I've ever had to live into is being competent, is having a capability and using that competency and capability to deliver. And this idea of not knowing was a complete unraveling. And as I look to where we are, whether it's in the firm as individuals or as a society, this idea of not knowing, this idea of leaning into things with curiosity to learn more.

00;09;01;11 - 00;09;21;17

Anthony Stephan

This is a construct that I brought to everything that I bring to you, whether it's what we're developing next, whether it's how I engage with people. And I would tell you that this idea of not knowing, embracing the uncertainty, is probably the most elite skill that we as humans need to develop. Given the pace of change and the level of difficulty that we're dealing with.

00;09;21;18 - 00;09;34;18

Dr. Foster Mobley

Yeah, the reality is that people didn't join the firm to be able to practice unknowing or not know, or that level of curiosity. They joined the firm because people hire us as experts in a particular time.

00;09;34;18 - 00;09;35;29

Anthony Stephan

That's right. That's right.

00;09;36;01 - 00;10;04;01

Dr. Foster Mobley

You know, one of the the premises of this effort originally was around authenticity in this troubled time, because people with greater agency are expecting their leaders to be more real, to give them opportunities to connect to their purpose. And I think that's still really important. But tell me a story about somebody in the firm who's doing a great job leading authentically, and who is comfortable enough to be able to embrace the not knowing piece so that they can talk with and partner with.

00;10;04;01 - 00;10;04;16

Dr. Foster Mobley

13.

00;10;04;18 - 00;10;31;12

Anthony Stephan

This is going to feel really awkward. I am most proud of how I do that. You know, look, I had the privilege of being part of a leadership experience a decade ago, and it was in that moment that I realized that my life's purpose is to engage with people in ways that change the trajectory of their lives. And those relationships and those connections will always be greater than any result we can achieve, because the relationships are what ultimately lead to the results.

00;10;31;14 - 00;10;51;12

Anthony Stephan

And from my standpoint, you know for sure, the reason I picked me is not to put myself up on a pedestal, but to take a moment and to share with you how difficult it is to do that on a daily basis, to be able to walk into a room with something that's really complex and tell the team, I have no idea how we're going to get there.

00;10;51;14 - 00;11;21;04

Anthony Stephan

I have no idea what it's going to take. I don't even know if we have the right people with the right skills to get that direction. But here's the situation in front of us, and the ability to be able to articulate that and demonstrate to others that I may not be the expert in that specific moment. The other thing I would tell you is, I've realized over time that how important it is as a leader to demonstrate the humanity of what we do.

00;11;21;07 - 00;11;41;14

Anthony Stephan

Look, first, I'm I'm 50 years old with a four year old. I sit in rooms with a lot of people that are beyond the empty nest thing at this point. Their kids are married with kids, and I'm a dad who values my family, and I'm going to wrestle with helping my kids get to and from school, the four year old and me.

00;11;41;19 - 00;12;18;12

Anthony Stephan

And I make that really known to others. And there are situations where people think I'm making choices with my family over really important things with the job. But I believe that bravery, that courage to be able to put these things on the table is what the next generation of our colleagues is looking for. So for me, this idea of living our truth, this idea of being brave with what we model and our words, and this idea of not knowing and admitting to not knowing these are all well, call like part of a character revolution that we need to bring to the forefront of what it means to lead.

00;12;18;16 - 00;12;41;27

Dr. Foster Mobley

I could not agree more. I'm thrilled. So you've got multi generations in the workforce, including anywhere from 62 all the way down to, you know, new entrants and how do you again move this big organization that is so highly performing to new cultural norms while you're still trying to perform every day?

00;12;42;00 - 00;13;06;12

Anthony Stephan

Yeah, I mean, look, you know, it's going to sound so basic, but it starts with listening. How do you listen to 173,000 people? Well, you take advantage of the fact that tech is advancing at a level that allows you to listen to 170,000 people. So one of the things coming out of the 120 day sprint that we initiated in 2022, we turned on what we call always on sensing.

00;13;06;19 - 00;13;37;26

Anthony Stephan

We want to hear what it is that our people are experiencing, what they're feeling, the direction that they expect the firm to be moving. And as a result of this, always on sensing there's a couple of things that we picked up on foster. So number one, we looked at the different ways that people learn. And 85% of our people from our leaders, all the way down to our analysts, 85% of those people still prefer in-person and on the job training.

00;13;37;28 - 00;14;06;02

Anthony Stephan

But when you go to the youngest generation of our colleagues, our analysts, through our managers, their preference is also 30 to 40% higher than everybody else in the other ways of learning third party platforms, social media, other types of omnichannel approaches. So as we look at this, the future is omnichannel learning. This requires us to be listening, to be investing.

00;14;06;03 - 00;14;11;07

Anthony Stephan

But that understanding doesn't happen if we don't create the space to listen.

00;14;11;07 - 00;14;21;00

Dr. Foster Mobley

I assume, then, that your team is also comprised of some multi-generation so that people can talk to the new entrance managers, senior managers, that sort of thing.

00;14;21;01 - 00;14;44;09

Anthony Stephan

So we have an innovation team that is not only diverse in gender or race or faith. We have a team that's more importantly diverse in experience, and we bring all of these experiences together to solve the problems of the future. For me, like that's the foundational component of how we innovate towards the direction of the expectations of our people.

00;14;44;10 - 00;15;09;23

Dr. Foster Mobley

It's like a real time design lab. Yeah. I would assume also then that you've had to think about, if not, adapt metrics to be able to measure the kind of the movement of culture, the movement of the workforce, the effectiveness of what it is you're doing. And I ask this because in my 25 years experience with the firm, there has been one metric that really mattered, which is, you know, unit value.

00;15;09;24 - 00;15;14;14

Dr. Foster Mobley

What shifts have you seen there? And and what are you guys thinking about in terms of measurement?

00;15;14;14 - 00;15;40;09

Anthony Stephan

Because I had led our Deloitte digital business, because our technology partners are so critical to our success. I became really familiar that every one of those organizations had a customer success organization. They wake up every day focused on the success of their customer. We ripped a page out of that playbook and we stood up. A business success capability in learning for the first time.

00;15;40;12 - 00;16;09;28

Anthony Stephan

And I've shared this with a number of our peers in the marketplace, and it's truly differentiating. It's got three core components to it. Number one performance based metrics. Number two experience based metrics. And number three, we must deliver a business value when we spend capital to grow our people. So this idea of having three dimensions of metrics performance being look how effective is this specific learning.

00;16;10;06 - 00;16;32;28

Anthony Stephan

You know, how many people are we getting through it within what time experience is really how did our people experience this training? Do they feel like they grew? Would they recommend it to others? Do they feel equipped to go take this learning and apply it? And then the business value is if the performance and the experience achieved what we expected it to achieve.

00;16;33;05 - 00;16;55;10

Anthony Stephan

What is the material impact on the business? Do we see our ability to, you know, create market truly growing as a result of these experiences? And this is a big shift for us to be able to combine what our people experience with the ability to create market and then get 500 plus stakeholders aligned on this idea that both need to be true.

00;16;55;16 - 00;17;07;27

Anthony Stephan

It's a journey, but the fact that the learning organization has raised its hand and said there's a lot of people that could jump to the front line for this, but we want to lead from the front. That, to me, is what I'm most proud of.

00;17;08;01 - 00;17;19;10

Dr. Foster Mobley

Give me some examples of some, maybe even course titles of things that are being offered to partners. And below today that might not have been on the on the docket five years.

00;17;19;10 - 00;17;44;16

Anthony Stephan

Ago in terms of the Deloitte and leadership human potential work. We just launched our adaptive and compassionate leader. Right. So there's a lot of different programs. We have our relationship mastery series, which is really well known. It's deeply rooted in our business chemistry, which is also widely known in the market. And we had our art of empathy and art of inquiry, and we had all of these specific opportunities.

00;17;44;23 - 00;18;02;27

Anthony Stephan

But what we are realizing is this idea of uncertainty, this idea of authenticity, this idea of compassion. So we are taking and creating experiences that focus on the adaptive nature of who we are and how we lead, and really leaning into what does it mean to do that with compassion?

00;18;02;29 - 00;18;15;14

Dr. Foster Mobley

But in an organization, the size and scope of Deloitte, you know, that's game changing. That is community changing. That's family changing. It's huge, huge impacts beyond just client service.

00;18;15;14 - 00;18;40;21

Anthony Stephan

We are absolutely passionate about playing a role in helping our people achieve their full potential. Our CEO Jason Gazidis has embedded this into every thread of communication, every thread of dialog. Jason's focus on the human potential, the full potential of our people, is the foundation of the direction that he is driving us.

00;18;40;22 - 00;18;54;26

Dr. Foster Mobley

So given that, again, this is not an easy thing to pull off. Very this is an exemplary kind of effort. The right one, I happen to believe. Now, what are the points of tension between the human piece and the performance piece? Where are the tough spots?

00;18;54;26 - 00;19;26;25

Anthony Stephan

There, sitting in the boardroom and sitting at the management team table. There has been absolutely no shift in the commitment to the development of human skills. Every CEO of every one of our businesses, any time we talk about growth and development, reinforces the importance of doing both things as businesses experience slowing or variable markets. One of the first things that we do is our capital investments.

00;19;26;27 - 00;19;57;17

Anthony Stephan

Where are we investing in either services and delivery of those services to our clients or other types of investments? The thing that I love about this, though, is if the firm comes back to me and says, Anthony, look, you may find yourself in a more constrained capital environment over the next few years because the market is variable. What an amazing challenge for me and the rest of the learning organization to innovate at a faster rate.

00;19;57;19 - 00;20;07;14

Anthony Stephan

The answer isn't we're going to do less. No, the answer is, how do we use A.I. and other tech to continue to meet the expectation of our stakeholders?

00;20;07;16 - 00;20;12;23

Dr. Foster Mobley

It's taking this. Yes. And philosophy and even even applying it to the disruptive changes.

00;20;12;27 - 00;20;42;08

Anthony Stephan

If you think about what's happening in society, the geopolitical environment, all of these things. What I am developing a deep appreciation for is it's a really big responsibility to sit at the heart of the growth and development of a 173,000 people that all have very unique experiences and experience. Anything that's happening in the broader world very, very differently for very, very different reasons.

00;20;42;15 - 00;21;10;25

Anthony Stephan

And one of the things that I've learned just in ten months in the role is how important it is for everybody to understand how people are receiving different things. So we're really doubling down on what is representation look like when we have characters and learnings and stories? What does that really mean? Do we all, as leaders, have an understanding of how those things are portrayed and more importantly, perceived?

00;21;10;26 - 00;21;41;03

Anthony Stephan

So one of the things that we're really focused on over the last few months is increasing our understanding of different people's experiences, and whether or not our learning is moving in a positive direction versus some of what we may have created over the last five years or ten years may be less helpful and a little hurtful. So for me, we are not allowing ourselves to ignore the reality of understanding.

00;21;41;03 - 00;21;49;15

Anthony Stephan

We are challenging ourselves to increase our understanding. So the learnings we create demonstrate greater representation and understanding.

00;21;49;18 - 00;22;09;22

Dr. Foster Mobley

I would imagine that this kind of rapidity of change move to greater inclusion, move to greater representation, and being very thoughtful about how you message things isn't for everyone. Have you noticed an outflow of people that just say, you know this, you know, peace out. This isn't for me.

00;22;09;25 - 00;22;35;06

Anthony Stephan

I can't say I have. I would say that what I witness on a daily basis from the most senior people in the firm is a commitment to growing our own understanding, to be better leaders every day, and to really continue to make sure that Deloitte in particular, remains truly differentiated from our peers.

00;22;35;08 - 00;22;57;24

Dr. Foster Mobley

You know, organizations have huge demands on their performance. Deloitte has been a high performing organization for ever. Yet new people are coming into the workforce. This is a new way of being a new culture, new skills being required, a lot more rapid, kind of rapid cycle learning. What are the aligning mechanisms now that the organization uses to make sure that people are aligned to values?

00;22;57;24 - 00;23;09;26

Dr. Foster Mobley

How do you do that? Is it part of selection? Is it part of onboarding? Is it how how do you align the values? How do you align the goals? How do you align to purpose? You know give me some some tips here.

00;23;10;00 - 00;23;35;00

Anthony Stephan

I love Bernie Brown's clear is kind, unclear is unkind, like it's the consistency and clarity of which we communicate these things and how we embed them through the different life cycle experiences that our people will go through. But it's also demonstrating the capacity to evolve. Foster. And I think that that's one of the things that the firm does exceptionally well.

00;23;35;05 - 00;23;59;01

Anthony Stephan

We didn't have very clear sustainability goals, you know, ten years ago. But our sustainability goals are very clear, and it's something we educate our people on. We give our people agency to be able to learn and develop skills and participate. So I think it's a consistency. It's a clarity. It's an embedded in every aspect of the life cycle, and it's a demonstration of an ability to evolve.

00;23;59;02 - 00;24;02;28

Dr. Foster Mobley

Is it safe to say that some of that stuff is embedded in your learning curriculum as well?

00;24;03;00 - 00;24;04;11

Anthony Stephan

Oh, 100%.

00;24;04;13 - 00;24;11;16

Dr. Foster Mobley

So, Anthony, as a voracious reader yourself, what's most inspiring you these days? What are you reading? What are you listening to?

00;24;11;16 - 00;24;37;16

Anthony Stephan

Chris Voss, former well renowned hostage negotiator, one of the founders of the Black Swan group. He wrote the book Never Split the Difference. Three years ago, I listened to his masterclass and I thought it was a masterclass on, like, business in negotiation. Foster, there is no set of skills that I apply on a daily basis, more than the skills I learned in that class.

00;24;37;19 - 00;25;04;08

Anthony Stephan

And what it basically translates to me, for me is the adversary is the situation. It is not the people involved to move into situations, to move into not knowing how to move into this idea that the people on the other side of the table, or the many people involved in this situation all are good, caring, compassionate people that want a similar outcome.

00;25;04;08 - 00;25;30;28

Anthony Stephan

How do you work your way through? So this idea that people aren't the adversary is the situation has been game changing for me. The next is Cornel West, American philosopher. He started to describe that what we are experiencing in this moment is an identity crisis. And what he describes is that there are three components to identity protection, association and recognition.

00;25;30;28 - 00;26;07;04

Anthony Stephan

But what I've realized is in every difficult situation that I've dealt with, with an individual or what I've recognized with that frame, is they are experiencing an identity crisis because one of those three dimensions is off. They feel unsafe, or they no longer feel connected, or they no longer feel appreciated or respected for what they do. And that mindset for me, when I can engage with people either on an individual basis or how we create learning, and to recognize that each individual has an identity and how we lean into that identity, to raise the watermark of all three of those things.

00;26;07;07 - 00;26;34;20

Anthony Stephan

That was game changing for me. The last I'll leave you with is the book that I read recently, which is Adam Grant's Hidden Potential. And there's two things that really stood out for me in that book. The first is his belief that we are embarking on a character revolution. It doesn't matter how fast technology changes and the advantages that we will have with tech, we will always have humans.

00;26;34;23 - 00;27;06;17

Anthony Stephan

And where does character and values play? As it relates to tech, and how often do our values get prioritized over our gut instinct or over difficulty? And so this idea of character, something we've talked about ages ago, decades ago, character being the underlying force that could be the most pivotal thing of our future, and really quite leaning into that as an important part of how we develop each other.

00;27;06;20 - 00;27;08;13

Anthony Stephan

That was pretty inspiring for me.

00;27;08;14 - 00;27;12;27

Dr. Foster Mobley

And clearly you are a believer in the future. Your passion and optimism show through.

00;27;12;28 - 00;27;39;29

Anthony Stephan

I have look, I mean, for me it's like growth is at the heart of the human experience. We will have humans. We we will continue to exist. So I'm not intimidated by the pace of change. I'm not intimidated by things constantly being difficult or complex. I'm inspired by our humanity. I'm inspired by the predominant volume of people that want to grow, that want to be better.

00;27;40;06 - 00;27;42;01

Anthony Stephan

How can we not be inspired by that?

00;27;42;08 - 00;28;04;24

Dr. Foster Mobley

Anthony, I can't tell you how much I appreciate this. This has been incredibly helpful, incredibly educational, and to hear and congratulations on all that I'm hearing about the great progress you have made, the firm has made, and things that are are planned for the future. I just I appreciate you. I appreciate all that you've done for the firm, that even as an outsider, I care so much about.

00;28;04;27 - 00;28;25;13

Dr. Foster Mobley

For a deeper exploration of your own journey, you can find tools, stories and reflection questions in my book Leadership Rethinking the True Path to Great Leading, or by following me on Social media. I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram as Foster Mobley. Until next time, step wise.

00;28;25;15 - 00;28;54;20

Jana Devan

Thank you for listening to Step Wise. Step Wise is brought to you by Doctor Foster Mobley, edited and promoted by Zettist. You can listen to more episodes wherever you stream podcasts. Find out more at fostermobleymt.com, or follow us on social media at Foster Mobley. That's ff-o-s-t-e-r-m-o-b-l-e-y we look forward to having an inspiring conversation with you soon.