Jen Fisher: Business' Evolution to Greater (and Deeper) Humanity

In this insightful episode of Step Wise, Foster Mobley sits down with Jen Fisher, a trailblazer in workplace well-being and human sustainability. As Deloitte’s first Chief Wellbeing Officer and now its Human Sustainability Leader, Jen shares her inspiring journey, from creating a groundbreaking role to becoming a voice for the evolving future of work.

Together, they dive into:
🌱 How organizations can prioritize human sustainability, including well-being, equity, and purpose.
🌍 The impact of workplace culture and leadership behaviors on employee wellness.
💡 Why leaders must embrace vulnerability and empathy to meet the demands of today’s workforce.
🔄 How the pandemic reshaped expectations for leadership and workplace dynamics.
💬 Practical strategies for leaders to balance personal well-being with organizational responsibilities.

Jen also shares personal insights as a cancer survivor and caregiver, emphasizing the importance of integrating human values into professional spaces. This episode is a must-listen for leaders, HR professionals, and anyone passionate about creating healthier, more sustainable work environments.

🎙️ Tune in to discover how organizations can rise to meet the moment and truly leave their people better than they found them.

#Leadership #Wellbeing #HumanSustainability #StepWisePodcast #FutureOfWork

Learn more about Foster at fostermobleymt.com or follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn at Foster Mobley.

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To purchase Dr. Foster Mobley's book, Leadersh*t: Rethinking the True Path to Great Leading, click here.

Transcript

00;00;07;07 - 00;00;35;19

Foster Mobley

Welcome back to Step Wise, a series of deep conversations with inspiring leaders about who they are, how they see the world, and their journeys that have influenced their worldviews and values. Today's guest is Jennifer Fisher, a leading voice on workplace well-being, human sustainability, and the future of work. Previously, Jen served as Deloitte's first-ever human sustainability leader and chief wellbeing officer.

00;00;35;19 - 00;01;08;22

Foster Mobley

In fact, she created the role. She's also a Ted speaker and coauthor of the book Work Better Together How to Cultivate Strong Relationships to Maximize Well-Being and Boost Bottom Lines a message near and dear to my heart. I had the opportunity to work with this high octane individual at Deloitte as her coach a number of years ago, and I will say without hesitation, she is the real deal smart, visionary, tough herself, a cancer survivor and a quality human being.

00;01;08;24 - 00;01;38;08

Foster Mobley

In this session today, several things stand out. First, she comments on the many dimensions of things that matter to workforces, including wellbeing, diversity, equity, inclusion, purpose and meaning. Second, she offers an enlightened framing for the employee interaction with its organization, which has the organization ask what is our role and what responsibility do we have for leaving people better off than when they interacted with us?

00;01;38;11 - 00;02;13;00

Foster Mobley

That is what is our responsibility for enhancing everyone who comes in contact with this organization. Third, she comments on the roles, culture, and leadership behaviors play in employee wellness. Fourth, she advocates that organizations need a different contract with their employees, one in which the focus is on human potential and wellness as well as performance. And finally, the struggles she's seen C-suite leaders themselves go through in adapting to this level of change.

00;02;13;03 - 00;02;16;05

Foster Mobley

I hope you enjoy this conversation with Jen Fisher.

00;02;16;05 - 00;02;46;28

Jen Fisher

Jen Fisher. I am a wife, a daughter, a sister, a caregiver for an elderly mother who is in the late stages of Alzheimer's disease. I was Deloitte's first ever chief wellbeing officer, and now I'm Deloitte's first ever human sustainability leader. I've been with the organization, Foster, if you can believe it. Going on 23 years now, so kind of a full lifetime, it feels like at this point, and I think we'll get into other nuances about me.

00;02;46;28 - 00;02;50;18

Jen Fisher

I'm also a cancer survivor, and that's kind of one of my identities is wonderful.

00;02;50;18 - 00;03;04;04

Foster Mobley

Thank you. And I love the fact that you began your introduction with really personal stuff. Had we done this 23 years ago, my sense is it would have been firm. First title, first work thing first, and then some of that other stuff.

00;03;04;06 - 00;03;13;13

Jen Fisher

You know that first hand because we spent a lot of time talking about that. So you have a big influence in why and how I introduce myself that way.

00;03;13;16 - 00;03;28;23

Foster Mobley

Oh that's excellent. I'm so pleased. And so let's let's go. There you are human sustainability officer for the firm. What does that mean? What does that entail? And why did the firm feel as though that would be an important contribution that you could make?

00;03;28;25 - 00;03;57;01

Jen Fisher

Yeah, it's such a great question. And to be completely honest, we were still figuring out exactly what it means. But really born out of, you know, this ongoing evolution that we're seeing that's kind of at the intersection of a lot of things that the humans in the workplace care about. And so what are those things? Wellbeing, diversity, equity, inclusion, purpose and meaning in the work that I do.

00;03;57;04 - 00;04;19;23

Jen Fisher

Health and health equity and then also the intersections of climate and climate change and the broader movement around sustainability. These are all things that our workforce and all workforces, I believe, continue to care about as human beings. And they're the things that impact us and impact the way that we show up and how we feel about the work that we do and the quality of work that we deliver.

00;04;20;00 - 00;04;32;25

Foster Mobley

Jennifer, when did you notice the firm was taking a more front and center role in the many issues of a societal, of a climate nature? That's typically not what we teach in business school.

00;04;32;26 - 00;04;59;23

Jen Fisher

I do have to go back, probably, at least in my purview, 8 or 10 years ago. Right. And that's when I became Deloitte's first chief wellbeing officer. Right. And so, you know what we looked at then and the business case then, which still resonates now, but we've learned so much more is we, like most large organizations, have a great set of tools and resources and benefits for our people.

00;04;59;26 - 00;05;27;29

Jen Fisher

But those things are only as good as culture and leadership behaviors and things that get rewarded, and things that are perceived in the culture as, you know, me having permission to take advantage of and not being seen as, you know, something that makes me less committed or makes me less loyal or makes me less than when I do my job.

00;05;28;01 - 00;06;00;22

Jen Fisher

And so I think that to and from a wellbeing perspective and probably so many other things, that's when the light bulb really went on to say, hey, we're spending a lot of money and we're doing it because we care deeply about our people and about our workforce. But there's this whole other piece that if we don't start to address some of the cultural norms that quite frankly, as you know, foster many cultural norms that exist in organizations today have been around for eons.

00;06;00;22 - 00;06;19;29

Jen Fisher

Right? And, you know, 30 years ago, the cultural norm made a ton of sense, but it no longer makes any sense. But it's just a cultural norm. So we kind of as human beings, we just keep doing it because that's the way we've always done it. And so it required us to really kind of take a step back and say, well, what are the things about our culture that aren't working?

00;06;19;29 - 00;06;42;20

Jen Fisher

And how do we go about changing not just the mindsets, but the behaviors of those people and rewarding different behaviors so that we do get different outcomes and really embedding it across the lifecycle of the firm. And what I will say is that, you know, ten years ago, you know, we were talking about these the things that we're talking about in the workplace.

00;06;42;20 - 00;07;07;24

Jen Fisher

We were not talking about wellbeing in the workplace or burnout out in the workplace the way that we are now. And so it was a really leading practice and thing for Deloitte to be doing. And probably out ahead of at least, you know, from my perspective, most organizations that I know. And it's been an incredible journey just to watch the firm and the leadership and our people.

00;07;07;24 - 00;07;30;06

Jen Fisher

And it's not, you know, I mean, it takes every part of the organization. When I talk to people about culture, we're all responsible for the culture that we want to create. It's not just leaders. Yes, leaders are very important, especially when creating human cultures. But everybody has a role to play in the culture, right? And so making people understand that it's not a let me point fingers at them being the leaders.

00;07;30;06 - 00;07;49;27

Jen Fisher

And then, you know, we've seen a lot of leaders, not necessarily at Deloitte, but just generally a lot of leaders kind of point the finger back and say, oh, well, this generation is, you know, doesn't want to work hard or, you know, whatever, pick your favorite thing. Right. And so I think part of what human sustainability is, is also like, let's stop the finger pointing.

00;07;49;27 - 00;08;04;03

Foster Mobley

Very different conversation. Give me an example of some of the human centric things that the firm now does or offers its workforce that are part of this well-being, human sustainability, etc.

00;08;04;04 - 00;08;39;07

Jen Fisher

One of the things that we realized, probably 5 or 6 years in and most likely as a result of the pandemic and the immediate shifts in the way that we work, and just the fact that so much were taken away from us is, you know, when we started on the wellbeing journey where we started, which is still very relevant today, but also foundational is providing people with the tools, resource and education to help them understand and take advantage of what was provided to them so that they could, you know, feel better and perform better.

00;08;39;07 - 00;09;00;24

Jen Fisher

And those are things like, you know, educating them on nutrition and how not necessarily diet, but how what we eat affects how we show up and our performance and how we treat one another. You know, things like movement and exercise and how important that is, things like sleep and rest and recovery and how important that is. Right. And so providing all of those tools and resources.

00;09;00;26 - 00;09;24;12

Jen Fisher

But if you kind of step back, you're like, wow, well, those are largely things that are done, quote unquote, outside of the work day. And what we didn't realize is that work itself is a significant influencer to people's well-being. And it can be a negative influencer, and it can be a very positive influencer, and it should be a positive influencer.

00;09;24;12 - 00;09;46;25

Jen Fisher

Like, there's a lot of great things about work that make us better. People make us feel better, you know, challenges working with people that we like, using our brain. All of those things are really important to us as human beings, but we never actually factored in the impact that work had. We just wanted to help people take care of themselves, so then they could show up at work and be better.

00;09;46;25 - 00;10;10;04

Jen Fisher

And so I think now the lens is broadened to say, oh, wait, you know, we got to get this work thing right? Because honestly, even if I'm eating right, exercising and sleeping, that's only going to get me so far if I'm overwhelmed, overworked, dealing with a toxic boss. All of those things have a much more outsized impact on a human being.

00;10;10;04 - 00;10;35;00

Jen Fisher

You know, if I'm just chronically overwhelmed and overworked, you know, chances are I'm not eating right. I'm not exercising regularly. I'm not getting enough sleep. I'm not managing my stress well. And we know from a leadership perspective, all of that trickles around to everybody that we're working with in terms of programs that I'm most proud of, that we have created and provided to our workforce over the years.

00;10;35;00 - 00;10;59;06

Jen Fisher

You know, going back a number of years, I think one of the ones that I'm most proud of is, is our paid family leave, and that is a benefit. But it's 16 weeks of a family leave, and that is a kind of across the board for caregiving of any type, regardless of gender. It's not just welcoming a new child into the world, but it is for, you know, a sick spouse, a sick child, an aging parent.

00;10;59;08 - 00;11;23;27

Jen Fisher

And so I think that was kind of a first, like really big move to say, okay, we need to support our people across the life cycle of their career with us and just the experiences that we as humans have. Right? For them to know that Deloitte has their back. You know, other things that we've done that other organizations have done as well, but that are very powerful for our people.

00;11;24;03 - 00;11;59;18

Jen Fisher

Is this concept of collective disconnects. And so we just had one over, you know, the at the year end, right, where the firm shuts down, you know, everybody is off, everybody has permission to be off. And quite frankly, if someone sends you an email, you're kind of like, what's wrong with this person? Right? And so, you know, the feedback on that is just incredibly positive, because it kind of gives everybody that breather to say, okay, it's one thing when I take vacation and everybody's still working, and I come back to 450 emails after three days, but it's so nice to come back.

00;11;59;18 - 00;12;38;13

Jen Fisher

After an extended period of time and literally have no emails, at least not internally. Right? And so again, those are just signals to say, hey, we understand and believe in the need for rest and recovery. The other thing that we've done more recently is our, you know, integrated mental health services and performance psychology services. Right. And so really beefing up the support that we provide to our people in particular, and helping them to navigate the mental health landscape, all of us are going to struggle with our mental health throughout our lives, throughout our careers, in one way or another.

00;12;38;13 - 00;12;56;00

Jen Fisher

And, you know, examples of that could be, you know, I talk regularly about burnout. My Ted talk is all about my experience with burnout. But, you know, I talked about, you know, caring for an aging parent. My mother has Alzheimer's. The grief that comes with that. Right. And, you know, like that too, is struggling with your mental health.

00;12;56;00 - 00;13;16;01

Jen Fisher

And so normalizing that conversation and normalizing that ability and willingness to reach out and say, hey, I'm having a moment and I need I need a little bit of extra support and I need a little bit of extra help. And so those are kind of three those are big things. There's all kinds of little things, but those are big investments that the firm has made and continues to make over the years.

00;13;16;01 - 00;13;27;21

Jen Fisher

That I think continues to kind of show the evolution of regularly responding to the needs of our workforce and the feedback that we're getting from them to say, hey, this is this is what I need.

00;13;27;21 - 00;13;34;00

Foster Mobley

What impact have you noticed on, you know, the typical measures retention, engagement, etc.?

00;13;34;02 - 00;14;01;19

Jen Fisher

Yeah, I mean, they've been they've been significant. We regularly, you know, pulse our workforce or our collecting data on our workforce. Not in a creepy way, but in a way that allows us to understand, hey, this is what's going on with our workforce so that we can direct the investments to effectively meet their needs instead of guessing, or instead of saying, hey, here's a one size fits all program, take it or leave it.

00;14;01;20 - 00;14;25;07

Jen Fisher

So we do regularly get feedback. Really, really heartfelt feedback from people on the impact that, you know, the various investments and programs that we've made and them. And I think to me, you know, the data speaks for itself. But when we're talking about being human and human leadership, it's it's the stories that are the ones that, you know, kind of get right to your heart and show you that you're doing the right thing.

00;14;25;07 - 00;14;53;17

Foster Mobley

My first reaction to the shutting down at the end of the year is, and the world didn't stop. Jim. Comment, if you will, on the challenge honoring and embracing the whole human. I love the concept of through their life cycle put, you know, puts on leaders and I'd love you to share anything you're willing to about what's required from the firm to support the leaders abilities to do that.

00;14;53;20 - 00;15;24;03

Jen Fisher

I think through our own research at Deloitte and just what we're experiencing and what we're seeing more broadly, even with our clients and in the market, that's a nut that we have yet to crack. And so, two years ago, we did a study because I was very interested and there was a lot of discussion during the pandemic and coming out of the pandemic about how the workforce was doing, and it wasn't very good.

00;15;24;05 - 00;15;48;04

Jen Fisher

And some might say that it's still not very good, but I kind of noticed this gap that we weren't talking about in particular C-suite leaders. And how are C-suite leaders doing? Because as you and I know, foster, that if the C-suite leaders aren't doing very well, then, you know, chances are we're going to have a hard time getting things to get better.

00;15;48;06 - 00;16;13;23

Jen Fisher

And what we found is that C-suite leaders themselves are struggling. I think we're just living through a really disruptive time where we haven't yet figured it out, and we haven't yet provided the right tools and resources. And to your point, kind of beyond business school, there's human skills that we need as leaders and that we recognize that we need as leaders.

00;16;13;23 - 00;16;37;26

Jen Fisher

But, you know, that's not what we get measured and rewarded against. And so there's still a gap. You have a lot of leaders that inherently just do it well. And then you have those that don't because it's not their makeup. So for example, and I'm not picking on CFOs, but CFOs historically were never people leaders. They were CFOs.

00;16;37;28 - 00;17;00;11

Jen Fisher

But now CFOs are people. Everybody is a people leader. Right. And so there still is a gap in, you know, how do we train for that? And I do believe you can train for it. A lot of the technical skills, quite frankly, they happen on the job. That doesn't mean that you don't need additional training. But we've never really focused primarily on these human skills.

00;17;00;11 - 00;17;23;01

Jen Fisher

And I think that's the most important thing than any organization can be focused on. And also what we found in our research, which was so fascinating, was that C-suite leaders perspective of how their workforce was doing. There was a 43% gap in how the workforce that they were doing and how the C-suite thought their workforce was doing. And so everybody was like, well, why?

00;17;23;05 - 00;17;44;06

Jen Fisher

And I'm like, well, the why is because if you're struggling as a leader, your perspective of how anything is going is, is kind of out of whack. You know, we look at the social media version of everybody's life and we're like, well, they're all doing great, and I'm not, so there must be something wrong with me. You and I have had that conversation before.

00;17;44;06 - 00;17;52;14

Foster Mobley

Oh yeah. Oh for sure we have. You know, it's interesting to you. And if you look back at the human potential movement started in the 60s and 70s, totally.

00;17;52;14 - 00;17;53;02

Jen Fisher

Yeah.

00;17;53;04 - 00;18;13;12

Foster Mobley

And that I don't know what happened, but whether it's social justice or it's pandemic or multi generations in the workforce or all of it, in a complex kind of mixture, that's accelerating these conversations today. But, you know, as you and I talked about a minute ago, this wouldn't have happened ten years ago or 15 years ago.

00;18;13;12 - 00;18;15;06

Foster Mobley

We wouldn't be having this conversation, right?

00;18;15;08 - 00;18;15;17

Jen Fisher

Yeah.

00;18;15;17 - 00;18;57;26

Foster Mobley

We weren't we weren't ready. Yeah. And yet Deloitte now as a very large, very significant player in professional services, the largest privately held, professional services firm in the world is at the leading edge in many, many ways of this. And that's why it's such a treat to talk with you. You know, one of the things that you're implying here in bringing people together to listen and learn without judgment, to be able to understand the totality of humanness of our people as we lead them with more empathy than perhaps we might have been willing or able to show a leader going first, a leader doing his or her own handling of those things.

00;18;58;01 - 00;19;24;25

Foster Mobley

All of those, dare I say, represent a higher level of awareness or consciousness on the part of leaders. It is to be able to sit in a room with someone and understand my own biases, to clean that lens of perspective, and to sit empathically and create a great space for them to interact with. That's very different stuff. Again, we haven't been talking about that for all of.

00;19;24;25 - 00;19;48;18

Jen Fisher

It's very different stuff, and the path to get there is uncomfortable. Like you have to get real with yourself and you have to get vulnerable. But quite frankly, that's what the workforce is expecting of their leaders right now. And they're being very clear about that. You know, they want to know who their leaders are and what their leaders stand for.

00;19;48;21 - 00;20;13;07

Jen Fisher

Very clearly. And and that, I think, is also a different request in demand. And I want to know who Jen Fisher is. I want to know what Jen Fisher stands for. And by the way, how that's aligned with what Deloitte stands for. And I think that that's also very different because that requires us to define what we stand for.

00;20;13;10 - 00;20;16;16

Jen Fisher

And that matters. And that's not necessarily easy work.

00;20;16;16 - 00;20;26;29

Foster Mobley

When did it happen that our workforce had that interest more in the leader, the leader personally, what we stand for, when did all this occur?

00;20;27;01 - 00;20;54;04

Jen Fisher

I think that these things were all bubbling under the surface pre-pandemic. I think they were there. I think the pandemic blew the top off because in a way, it leveled the playing field. We were all, you know, from a Deloitte perspective, from a knowledge worker perspective. We immediately shifted kind of this in-person, hybrid world to fully virtual. Everybody was working from their home.

00;20;54;04 - 00;21;14;13

Jen Fisher

We all had issues that we had to kind of come clean about, right? Like we had to show up and say, I can't do this right now because I have a three year old biting my ankles. You know? And so I think that forced some vulnerability. But I do think that the call or the draw for it was there pre-pandemic.

00;21;14;13 - 00;21;41;27

Jen Fisher

I think pandemic kind of said, okay, we're all on level playing field. How do we show up to the moment? I will say that I do have some concerns that we're slipping back to some of those pre-pandemic expectations and behaviors. I think that the lack of clarity and understanding that the broad swings that you're seeing generally around, how do we go back to the office, do we not not go back to the office?

00;21;41;27 - 00;22;04;18

Jen Fisher

People are more productive in an office. How do we build culture if we don't, if we're not together? Bad leadership is bad leadership, whether it's virtual or in-person. And I tell people you can absolutely build relationships virtually. That's why dating apps are actually successful. You know, if you are committed and you want to build, you want to make it work, you will make it work.

00;22;04;18 - 00;22;22;01

Jen Fisher

You will find a way. And so to I think your overall point here, that's why we need to be human leaders, right. Like that's why we need to show up and be like, I screwed it up. I don't know the answers. This is what I'm struggling with this, you know, and and as leaders, that's what makes us human, right?

00;22;22;01 - 00;22;29;02

Jen Fisher

That's no longer this leader that kind of sits up here that is infallible and has no problems and no issues, because that's not real life.

00;22;29;03 - 00;22;55;19

Foster Mobley

If you look at the studies and I know you have that talk about our population's distrust of structures, distrust of government, distrust of academia, distrust of churches, it seems as though they're looking to corporations. Their work lives to fill more of those maybe structural or directional needs that they might have been able to fill in in other places.

00;22;55;19 - 00;23;00;24

Foster Mobley

They're looking for businesses to be their, quote, community of sorts.

00;23;01;02 - 00;23;28;17

Jen Fisher

Look, as working adults, we spend the majority of our waking hours, like it or not, working in. So it matters who we work with, who we work for, what they care about, what they stand for, what their values are. And that's at the core of human sustainability, too. You know, I started out by saying, what is the responsibility of organizations and leaders?

00;23;28;17 - 00;23;49;25

Jen Fisher

It can't be any longer that I pay you to get a job done and you get the job done. So we need to rise to the occasion. But we also need to recognize that when we rise to the occasion, it's yes, we're demanding more from leaders in organizations, but it's a virtuous cycle. It's not that organizations aren't going to benefit from it.

00;23;49;25 - 00;24;20;01

Jen Fisher

They will 100% benefit from it. But I think the younger generations in particular, we have to recognize that they grew up likely in a world where their parents weren't present because their parents were overwhelmed and overworked and were constantly on these devices, you know, even when they were there. Right. And so I think a lot of what we're seeing isn't a pushback on I don't want to work hard and my career doesn't matter to me.

00;24;20;06 - 00;24;24;06

Jen Fisher

It's a push back to say, hey, there's got to be a better way.

00;24;24;06 - 00;24;37;05

Foster Mobley

Well, I loved your earlier point that the need has been out there for quite a while. The need for humanness, the need for connection, the need for community has been out there a long time, and maybe now it's just bubbled up to the top of that surface.

00;24;37;05 - 00;25;01;10

Jen Fisher

I do think that the risk is, is the demand on leaders today. The demand on leaders today is so huge, right. So how do you how do we get leaders to prioritize this along, you know, with the long list of everything else? I think as Greg McCann who said that, you know, there can't be ten priorities, right. Like the definition of priority means that there's one.

00;25;01;13 - 00;25;15;20

Jen Fisher

And everything else kind of, you know, is de prioritized in a sense. Right. But leaders today just there's there's too many priorities. And so how do we get this to rise to the top of that list to be the priority that everything else then falls under?

00;25;15;21 - 00;25;35;25

Foster Mobley

That's a hard and long term sell and one worth pursuing. You know, in a shameless plug for my first book, I believe leaders go first. They they do their work. We can talk about a lot of other initiatives that if I haven't done my work, if I haven't, and Bill George was a wonderful example of this. He said, look, I started meditating 35 years ago.

00;25;35;28 - 00;26;00;03

Foster Mobley

I started a men's group 35 years ago, 47 years ago, and we still do it. I started prioritizing mental health all those years ago. I started getting clear on my life's crucible and my own values many, many years ago. Like he's done his work and he continues to do his work. And that if I entered the workforce today as a leader, where do you start?

00;26;00;03 - 00;26;14;28

Foster Mobley

And then how do you possibly how do I sit with a Gen Fisher and not worry about all the other things going on in my life, the priorities, the next call, the metrics that I'm slipping on? How do I how do I show up as a fully human in that? And that's not easy.

00;26;14;28 - 00;26;42;12

Jen Fisher

I love that point about leaders going first. The flip side of that is I and everybody else in the workforce don't want to work for a leader that doesn't put themselves first, you know? And I think so many of us over the years have been taught that putting yourself first is selfish for a lot of reasons. Right? But it's not because there's nothing worse than working for a leader that hasn't done the work or isn't taking care of themselves.

00;26;42;12 - 00;26;46;10

Jen Fisher

And so the leader has to go first, and the rest of us want you to go first.

00;26;46;11 - 00;27;08;26

Foster Mobley

We've always talked a leaders about it's other centered. It is let's collectively develop a vision. Let's get everybody aligned around it. Let's focus on all of that. And at the same time, if a leader hasn't done his or her own work, if they are triggered, not showing up well, maximally stressed, all of that kind of stuff, if there is not enough self orientation, none of it works.

00;27;08;26 - 00;27;25;21

Foster Mobley

And so how are we balancing those kind of issues? That's I won't use the word fun because this is necessarily not fun. But there is a level of depth level fulfillment level of life reality that we now have the possibility of by having these conversations that again, ten, 15 years ago, we.

00;27;25;21 - 00;27;48;08

Jen Fisher

Didn't I picked on the concept of servant leadership a little bit in my in my Ted talk, not because I don't believe in some of the concepts that are put forward in servant leadership, but I actually think language matters. And when you tell a leader that they have to be a servant leader to me, in my mind that means everybody else comes before me, right?

00;27;48;08 - 00;27;56;01

Jen Fisher

And so I think we need to change that dynamic. And even something as seemingly insignificant as the language that we use.

00;27;56;09 - 00;28;07;06

Foster Mobley

And I know this is a part of your outreach to the world, but I'd love to hear from you, what, 3 or 5 sources, books, podcasts that are really inspiring you today?

00;28;07;06 - 00;28;42;12

Jen Fisher

Well, I think one, I can totally give us a shameless plug for my own Deloitte sponsored podcast, which is called Work Well, which we just did our 100th episode, which is pretty amazing and I will tell you that personally has been such a joy. But also a real opportunity for for me to grow. I kind of call it my bi weekly therapy session, because I get to have people on the show that I admire, that I learn from every day, and I get to ask them whatever questions that I want to ask them.

00;28;42;12 - 00;29;10;01

Jen Fisher

And so that really cool. In terms of books, there is a book that they're sitting right next to me that's always sitting right next to me. That's called real self-care. It's by Doctor Puja Lakshman and, you know, foster, it gets into a lot of the things that we were talking about, that well-being and sustainable work and human leadership doesn't come about with, you know, yoga classes and crystals.

00;29;10;01 - 00;29;33;10

Jen Fisher

Those aren't bad, but it's really getting to the core of like, what are our what are our values? There's a couple like other, I think, life changing books for me that aren't necessarily like latest or new, but the choice by Doctor Edith Egger, who, is a I think she's in her 90s now. She's a psychologist, she's a Holocaust survivor.

00;29;33;12 - 00;29;57;13

Jen Fisher

And it's really about kind of, you know, are in the worst of times and even in the best of times, what makes us human is our ability to choose. There's another book called When Breath Becomes Air, by, physician doctor Paul Kalanithi and this one is probably more personal, but he was a, a brain surgeon who was then diagnosed with cancer.

00;29;57;15 - 00;30;17;10

Jen Fisher

Any kind of talks about his experience of the the difference between kind of being a doctor and a provider of care and then switching to the other side and actually being a patient and a receiver of care. And it's just beautifully, very poetically written. And so those are some that kind of come to mind that are my, my evergreen resources.

00;30;17;13 - 00;30;28;27

Foster Mobley

Jen, we are at our time and I want to be respectful of yours. You have been amazing, I appreciate you, I appreciate all the work that you're doing for the many people in the firm and outside that I care so much about.

00;30;29;00 - 00;30;46;18

Jen Fisher

Thank you and thank you for including me on on your journey, and I hope you always know that, you know, you you were there at the beginning, the beginning of this and so much of what we talked about influenced that, that who I become. And I'll never forget that, actually, Albert and I talk about it all the time.

00;30;46;18 - 00;30;53;24

Foster Mobley

Well, I appreciate that very much. You know, it's you know, this about our busy lives. We sometimes lose touch with that. We sometimes.

00;30;53;26 - 00;30;55;08

Jen Fisher

We do.

00;30;55;10 - 00;31;14;01

Foster Mobley

For a deeper exploration of your own journey, you can find tools, stories and reflection questions in my book Leadership Rethinking the True Path to Great Leading, or by following me on Social media. I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram as Foster Mobley. Until next time. step wise.

Jana Devan

Thank you for listening to Step Wise. Step Wise is brought to you by Doctor Foster Mobley, edited and promoted by Zettist. You can listen to more episodes wherever you stream podcasts. Find out more at fostermobleymt.com, or follow us on social media at Foster Mobley. That's ff-o-s-t-e-r-m-o-b-l-e-y we look forward to having an inspiring conversation with you soon.